Industry Committee on Aug. 27th, 2010

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Ultimately, though, as it relates to schools and the aging population, I agree with you that we do need to understand that, but I would point out that both date of birth and address are on the mandatory short form that everybody has to answer. So we do have that data, moving forward, on the mandatory short form.

As it relates to settlement funding and things having to do with immigration, of course, we would have information on where new Canadians are settling through the statistics that CIC would have as well. Of course, our government has increased settlement funding significantly over the last four years, as one of the witnesses in the previous committee testified.

You represent within your group a significant number of people considered to be from vulnerable communities, the same vulnerable communities that I know the opposition members have said will be less likely to fill out a voluntary survey. I would imagine that it would make sense that they would also be less likely to fill out a mandatory survey.

They are less likely to fill out a mandatory census. They are less likely to respond to those things. Correspondingly, then, they would be more likely to be threatened with fines, significant fines, for not wanting to answer a question.

So again, take somebody from one of those vulnerable communities, let's say a new Canadian—because you just referred to that—who may not want to answer a question that the government asks about housework or how much time they spend with their kids, or religion, those kinds of things. On whatever principle it is that they decide they don't want to answer it, the enumerator goes there a couple of times and asks them and they respectfully say they are not comfortable answering that question. Do you believe that person who doesn't want to answer a question about his or her religion—to put a specific question on the table—should be fined $500, or threatened with a fine of $500?

[Peggy Taillon]

The thing we have to remember is that the mandatory nature of the census signifies that this is a significant instrument for all Canadians. So under that, we're all equal.

I've talked to a lot of average Canadians throughout the summer and have asked them, “Do you know what the census is?” People will say to me—and granted, this is anecdotal—“It comes to my house and I know it's something that I have to fill out. It's really important”.

Do they understand that it's mandatory and there's a fine attached? Maybe not. Maybe some do; maybe some don't.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Sorry. I need to interrupt you for one second. I know my time is limited and I want to make sure that we get a clear answer on this.

Let's say the enumerator explains those types of things—because I agree with you that there are people who generally, when they get the long form, haven't had it before, so it might require some explanation. Let's say the enumerator explains very clearly that it's a responsibility, that it will make Canada a better place, all of those things, and the person still says, on principle, “I'm not going to tell you what my religion is. I'm just not comfortable with that. And I don't want to tell you how much housework I do”.

So that's two questions they refuse. That's $1,000. Do you think at that point you are fully in favour of this person, who might be of low income, being threatened with a fine of $1,000?

[Peggy Taillon]

Unfortunately, if we're all equal under the census, then if I choose not to fill it out, I should get a fine; a millionaire should get a fine; and someone else should get a fine.

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

Somebody living below the poverty line on social assistance should get a fine.

[Peggy Taillon]

People can get fines in this country for not sending their kids to school, whether they're rich or poor. What I'm saying is, at some level, we are all equal. I think the mandatory nature of the census makes it more inclusive. There's a process attached to the mandatory nature of it that helps people comply with it.

Do I want people fined? Do I want to pay a fine? Absolutely not, but if an instrument like that is necessary to get this information, then I would have to say, we're all equal.

[The Chair, Conservative, Michael Chong]

Thank you very much, Madame Taillon.

Mr. Masse.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

I love these imaginary scenarios about the single mother under the poverty line. About the only thing that hasn't happened to her yet is that her dog was run over, or something like that. It's like a bad country and western song.

It's unbelievable in the sense that the minister has turned himself into almost a pretzel, when you think about his quotes when it comes to the agricultural census. He said,The argument obviously to farming associations and to farmers is, “You fill out the form, it'll help the government help you in your farming activities.”

But I guess that doesn't apply for the other, urban, Canadians. So I'd like to have your opinion about whether the minister has it right on the farming, by keeping it mandatory and keeping penalties. Ironically, he's making the agricultural community different from every other community, because they've gotten a special treatment of having to continue to have a compulsory long-form agricultural census, with fines and penalties, unlike other Canadians.

[Peggy Taillon]

I'm very clearly saying that the long-form census should be mandatory. If there's a strong rationale for other survey tools within the basket that StatsCan administers and there's a good rationale for why they need to be mandatory, they need to be mandatory.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

This is one of the things that makes it really interesting as we've listened to witnesses. One of the government witnesses was a farmer who had to spend three days filling out the form and had to do it at a time that wasn't convenient. Yet nothing changes for that individual, which is quite ironic.

What I would like to move to and get Monsieur Noreau's and Ms. Taillon's opinion on is this: When there's SARS or a public health and safety issue such as, even most recently, H1N1, do the public health and safety offices—the health units, and so forth, that do the public response—use census information on how to deal with pandemics related to human health?

[Peggy Taillon]

Absolutely. Unequivocally, that's where their data comes from. That's how they ramp up their response. That's how they know where to find people. That's how they know to place a clinic in this school or in that community centre. That's the information that drives that process.

[Pierre Noreau]

That is an excellent question. During the H1N1 crisis, everyone thought it was first and foremost a health issue. We knew that we would manage to produce a vaccine. We knew very well how to do it and how long it would take. The big question was in the area of the social sciences: how would it be distributed? Therefore, it was a all about managing the population and the quantities.

In such cases, census data is precisely the type of information needed. That is also the case for a very large number of government interventions, where specific groups or even the entire population are to be targeted.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Obviously the immediate human health aspect is important, but what is also critical is how we deal with it through our economy. If we have this investment in having reliable information, are we apt to be able to save more money in the long run by not having more guesswork, and more specific data versus using less-reliable data?

[Pierre Noreau]

Various studies use census data. If the data were not available, we would have to collect them every time they were needed. Thus, we would have to conduct a large number of specific studies to compensate for the lack of specific census data. That would cost a fortune. The census is not an expense: it is a form of savings. Once we have the data , we can rely on them for a certain period of time because they are robust. In addition, we do not have to carry out a good number of other surveys to collect the same information. To some extent, the census results in savings for the community.

[Peggy Taillon]

Absolutely. If you think about some of the questions in the census, if you looked at them individually you would think they were almost absurd. Why do you need to know how many bathrooms I have in my home? But that helps direct important government infrastructure and important government services to Canadians and it best informs what the sewer infrastructure should look like in a given community.

So, absolutely, without that information you are kind of feeling your way around. We all know every level of government is rationing, and you're not using public resources effectively.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Mr. Zhong, how many people in your community have been fined for not filling out the census?

[Xinsheng (Simon) Zhong]

We have conducted a survey, and 82%—

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

How many have actually had to pay a fine because they refused to fill out the census?

We know that nobody has been jailed. We don't know how many fines have been out there.

Has anybody you're aware of not filled out the long-form census and then had to pay a fine?

[Xinsheng (Simon) Zhong]

We don't know that number.

For a long time, especially for the Chinese community, with it being mandatory, it has been very difficult for them to fill out the long form. They need to find an interpreter, especially senior groups, as they don't know English.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Is that more the issue?

I was part of what was called the “complete count”, in the year 2000. I worked at the Multicultural Council of Windsor and Essex County. What we found with people who had English as a second language was that they actually wanted to participate in the census and other government programs, but they needed, as you said, the interpretation and someone to sit down and help them fill out the forms.

If the current situation stands, 30% of your community will get the census form. It won't be mandatory, but it will show up in their mailbox. That will be something they'll have to deal with. Do you think they will really know it isn't going to be mandatory now? Will they participate? Will they throw it in the garbage? What do you think will happen?

More people are going to get the census as things currently stand, unless it changes.

[Xinsheng (Simon) Zhong]

Filling out the census form is okay; they support it. If it is mandatory and they are filling it out, that's great. But if you change it to voluntary, it is good.

Another issue is our—

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Why is that good? What will improve? Why will the response rate then increase if it becomes voluntary versus mandatory?

I'm just looking for the reason it is good, in your opinion.

[Xinsheng (Simon) Zhong]

If they fill out the form, everyone will let the government know about immigration data and other issues. But I think if these details are only collected from the short form, it's okay.

The first thing is that the long form is so lengthy. Another thing is that if they won't fill it out, they will get the penalty.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

But you don't know of anyone who has actually been—

[Xinsheng (Simon) Zhong]

No, I don't.