Evidence of meeting #37 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was camr.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:15 p.m.
Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Industry Canada
I believe that in this case there was a subsidy by the Clinton Foundation of the product that was being produced by Apotex, which made it cost effective.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON
Thank you.
In the presentation—I forget who mentioned this—we saw reference to the fact that 95% of drugs are off patent. What percentage of HIV/AIDS medications are off patent? Are there any?
12:15 p.m.
Director, Policy Bureau, Therapeutic Products Directorate, Health Products and Food Branch, Department of Health
Some...[Inaudible--Editor]
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON
Okay. Thank you.
Mr. Ready, turning to you, sir, with respect to the trade obligations, you mentioned that Bill C-393 could violate the terms of TRIPS and WTO. I just want to push back a little bit on that. When I read the word “could”, I read “may or may not”, so I just wanted to ask what the probability is of Bill C-393 violating trade obligations. What does that look like? Can you give an example? What would the consequences be?
12:15 p.m.
Chief Air Negotiator, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
It's very difficult to speak of a probability, as I said. The only sure thing, the only time you really know, is when there's been a panel decision against Canada. Up to then, it's a question of risk and assessing risk.
As I said earlier, we've looked at the proposed amendments that would eliminate elements such as the capture WTO notifications, and at the information that wouldn't necessarily be provided, such as recipient country, the drug amounts, the delivery dates, and so on. Those are elements that draw inspiration from the WTO waiver, which in turn is what protects you from the obligations in the TRIPS agreement. So the argument is that if you're not fully respecting the waiver, you could be in violation of elements of the TRIPS agreement itself, and that's a risk. I can't characterize the risk beyond that.
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON
Okay. There's a $60,000 question for me, then. If we understand that Bill C-393 has flaws and CAMR has limitations, then the question is, how can Canada provide an increased quantity of HIV/AIDS medications to the developing world?
12:15 p.m.
Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Industry Canada
I think the answer is really the answer that my colleagues from CIDA have been giving. It's really to participate in and contribute to a number of high-priority initiatives that Canada participates in--
12:15 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative David Sweet
That will have to be the conclusion of that answer.
Thank you very much.
Mr. Bouchard, you have the floor for five minutes.
12:15 p.m.
Bloc
Robert Bouchard Bloc Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you also to our witnesses for joining us today.
We have seen one case where generic drugs were shipped to a country. Based on this experience, can we conclude that this country had the necessary infrastructures in place to ensure that the sick received the drugs?
12:15 p.m.
Senior Director, Regional and Geographic Programs - Southern and Eastern Africa, Canadian International Development Agency
We'll have to get back to you with an answer, since we do not have that information handy at this time.
12:15 p.m.
Bloc
Robert Bouchard Bloc Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC
We've only had one experience involving this particular country. Is that right?
12:20 p.m.
Senior Director, Regional and Geographic Programs - Southern and Eastern Africa, Canadian International Development Agency
Of exporting medicines under CAMR?
12:20 p.m.
Senior Director, Regional and Geographic Programs - Southern and Eastern Africa, Canadian International Development Agency
Medicines were shipped using the regime to only one country.
12:20 p.m.
Bloc
Robert Bouchard Bloc Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC
Is CAMR a one-of-a-kind regime? Is Canada the only country to have a regime of this nature in place? If not, if other countries have similar regimes, can you tell us a bit about them?
12:20 p.m.
Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Industry Canada
A number of other countries besides Canada have access to medicines regimes: countries of the European Union, including the Netherlands, as well as Switzerland, Norway, India, Hong Kong, Korea, Singapore, and the Philippines. They all differ in many ways.
Perhaps it would be most useful if I provided that information to the committee. I could walk you through it, but it's actually quite complex. For example, there are different requirements and different ways of setting out the quantities exported. There are different approaches to product labelling and diversion as well, depending on the country. The types of products that are eligible are different as well. There are different requirements for importers. There are some differences in notification depending on the system they set up. The duration and the enforcement mechanisms are all different in different ways, though they are all meant to be in line with the WTO waiver.
12:20 p.m.
Bloc
Robert Bouchard Bloc Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC
You say that a number of other countries have access to medicines regimes. Can you tell as a bit about some regimes that have proven successful?
12:20 p.m.
Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Industry Canada
Canada is the only country of the ones I listed that has actually successfully seen medicines shipped using the regime. There are no other examples.
12:20 p.m.
Bloc
Robert Bouchard Bloc Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC
Thank you.
My next question is directed more to industry officials. Negotiations took place between the pharmaceutical companies that produce patented medicines and those that manufacture generic drugs. How did these negotiations go? Was the process easy or difficult?
12:20 p.m.
Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Industry Canada
I can tell you a little bit about that, although I think the best people to answer the question would be the companies that were involved in the negotiation. There were, I gather, some lengthy negotiations, though they were not required under CAMR. So at the time they didn't relate to the actual requirements of the regime.
The regime requires that when, say, Apotex notifies the company that holds the patent, it has to say it would like to do this voluntarily and ask if the company would agree to a voluntary licence. The owner of the patent has 30 days within which to reply. If they don't reply within 30 days, then Apotex or the generic company can go on to the compulsory regime. So there is a time limitation on that negotiation. And there might be no negotiation in that period. Once the 30 days runs out, you're on to the next steps in the process.
In the example of Rwanda, there were extensive negotiations, but they didn't relate to the timing that's built into the bill, which is really meant to limit that period and allow the generic company to move on to the next stage.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative David Sweet
Thank you, Ms. Downie.
Monsieur Bouchard, your time has expired totally.
Now we move on to Mr. Wallace for five minutes.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to thank our guests this morning. The presentations have been excellent. We hear the other side of the story in our offices and so on, so it's nice to hear from those who are involved directly in representing the government on the other side of the story. I appreciate that.
I would like a couple of clarifications, just for the record. AIDS drugs are being provided by other countries around the world at a lower cost than Apotex was providing them at, or maybe they won that. But it's not as though there are no drugs at all from other countries around the world going to Africa. Is that correct? And who are their main suppliers? What countries are the main suppliers?
12:25 p.m.
Director, Policy Bureau, Therapeutic Products Directorate, Health Products and Food Branch, Department of Health
Approximately 80% to 85% of the ARVs supplied to the developing countries are being supplied by India.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Mike Wallace Conservative Burlington, ON
By India. I appreciate that, just for clarification.
I have five points in front of me that are from the grandmothers organization, which I'm sure you are aware of. They are concerned with CAMR and its effectiveness. I'm going to say what they state and maybe you can respond for me:
CAMR, originally adopted for humanitarian reasons, does not work in its current state.
They are claiming this access to medicines regime does not work.
Based on your submissions today, including the submission that shows it took 13, maybe 14, months from the beginning to the end within the CAMR regime, would you agree with them that it's CAMR's issue, or would you say other issues are causing the difficulty?
12:25 p.m.
Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Industry Canada
We would say that CAMR is not the solution to the terrible problems the grandmothers have pointed out, and even if these changes were made to CAMR, they wouldn't result in an increased shipment of these medicines.