Industry Committee on Dec. 9th, 2010

[Richard Bilodeau]

Indeed.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

According to legislation and regulations she can initiate her own investigation. How many times has the commissioner initiated investigations over the last 12 months?

[Richard Bilodeau]

I do not have the exact figure for the last 12 months. However, I can tell you that at this point, we have 45 formal investigations—investigations called pursuant to section 10, which we are referring to today. Thirty per cent of these 45 investigations were initiated on the basis of means other than an individual calling our office to report an anti-competitive act. These investigations are still underway.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

With respect to this 70 %, would those people be citizens who called in to your office? Did they have to support their complaint? In other words, did they have to prepare the complaint in order to be able to file it and present it to you?

[Richard Bilodeau]

There are several methods available. A company may hire a lawyer to call us and make representations to the bureau in order to tell us about the situation his client was faced with, and the lawyer provides an explanation. The same thing applies in the case of any Canadian deciding to call. People can call our information centre and file a complaint. It is then sent to an officer who calls the complainant back and asks questions to try to determine whether the complaint falls within the ambit of the act and whether there can be redress under the act. Questions are asked with respect to some information the individual has, and further to that, we investigate.

This investigation may take just a few days, as it may become evident that the conduct does not fall within the scope of the act. It may also take a number of months, even years, if we realize that there may be something within the market that is not working.

We read the papers. Often this type of conduct may be reported in the papers. Based on public information we read in the papers or which is brought to our attention, the commissioner may launch an investigation to determine the facts and use her formal powers.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Mr. Vincent, you have just heard Mr. Bilodeau. What do you think this requires of people? I am the member for Chicoutimi—Le Fjord. If I notice that all of the prices are the same when I am driving down the boulevard and I call the Competition Bureau to report this fact, do you think that they will automatically launch an investigation?

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

That is a very good question, Mr. Bouchard, as I did that myself. I wanted to know how things work. I called and filed a complaint to say that the price-fixing... A great deal had been written in local Granby newspapers to the effect that the price was fixed at $1.12 and that in neighbouring municipalities, it was set at $1.05, perhaps. There were a number of reports in newspapers in my riding to that effect. I called myself and asked other people to call to see how an investigation was launched.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Was this recently?

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Yes, recently.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

And nothing changed? No investigation was launched?

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

The lady who called me back after the fact asked me what evidence I had. They are the ones who are supposed to have the evidence, they are the ones who investigate. If it is up to me to do the investigation and then provide them with all the evidence, what is left to their investigative powers? They are not conducting an investigation; they take what I give them.

That is what Mr. Bilodeau just said. He just said that either lawyers or citizens call in, that they get a call back and are asked to provide the details as to the situation which should be the subject of an investigation. If I provide them with all of this information on a golden platter, yes, the commissioner may proceed to an investigation because now she has all possible and imaginable documents to carry out the investigation.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

Do you think that at this point for there to be an investigation, individuals have to buttress their argument, investigate—

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

It takes evidence.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

— and table all of this evidence before the commissioner. That is the situation.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Indeed, that is how it works. That is what I was told when I called in. If there is no evidence of collusion between oil companies, they cannot investigate.

I do not understand why they say they can investigate when they cannot. They tell people that they cannot do an investigation.

[Robert Bouchard, Bloc, Chicoutimi—Le Fjord, QC]

We also refer to other countries where certain agencies exist. How this that work? You refer to that in your presentation. Could you provide us with additional information as to what is happening an Australia or the United Kingdom?

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

As I said in my statement—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Be very brief, Monsieur Vincent.

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

I will be brief.

In the United States, the UK, European Union Member States and in Australia, commissioners have the power to investigate. I do not understand why here, in North America, Canada has not had this power to investigate since 1986—it existed before 1986. In the rest of North America, in the United States, they have this power to investigate, and so do the 24 countries of the European Union. It would lead one to believe that Canada is beyond reproach.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Mr. Vincent and Mr. Bouchard.

Now we'll go to Mr. Braid for seven minutes.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you very much to all of our witnesses for being here.

Mr. Vincent, if we can take a step back, can you explain the real-life situation that gave rise to or inspired your private member's bill? What was the specific situation?

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

In 1986, when the investigative authority was removed from the Competition Bureau, we realized that it could not launch an inquiry until a denunciation had been made. I am not the only one saying this. The former commissioner of the Competition Bureau told us, during a committee meeting, told us that he could not do his job properly because he did not have any investigative powers. In order for the Competition Bureau to fulfil the mandate given to it by the government, it needs investigative powers. Otherwise, what can it do? Does it have to wait for people to denounce situations based on flagrant evidence?

Finally, we want to protect citizens.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

But have any specific situations occurred that you are trying to address or respond to? Can you describe any of those situations?

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Absolutely. I believe that this is common practice in the oil sector. In your riding, I am sure that some citizens think the same thing, as well as other people throughout Canada. They are certainly wondering why the price of gas is so high, and why there has been no investigation.

There have been inquiries that have not led to any clear conclusions. That is because, at that time, the Competition Bureau's investigative authority was restricted. Even today, the bureau is limited to documents available to the public. These are documents available on the Internet or elsewhere, or documents that the company agrees to provide to us. How are you supposed to undertake a serious inquiry when you do not have any serious documents? In order to undertake an inquiry, you cannot search an office in order to look for documents, you are limited to what the company agrees to provide. That does not make any good sense.

[Peter Braid, Conservative, Kitchener—Waterloo, ON]

So you're trying to address the price of fuel to retail gas stations and a concern about potential price fixing. Is that correct?