Industry Committee on Dec. 9th, 2010

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Everything that Mr. Bilodeau told you, all of the steps that he is required to take in order to decide whether or not to launch an inquiry would be eliminated by the bill. We would not have to ask all of these questions, we would not have to go to court in order to see a judge about starting an inquiry. We would be entitled to show up at the offices of a company in order to seize documents. That is what is missing from the investigative authority.

Investigators cannot go to the offices of a sector in order to seize documentation. They can only obtain documents that are available. So that means documentation that the industry... And I am not referring only to the oil industry. I am talking about any type of industry. We see this happening in the construction sector, where prices are fixed for contracts: we need to launch an inquiry. The Union of Municipalities asked the Competition Bureau, back in April, to investigate contract-fixing in the construction sector, and I have heard no more about it, I have seen nothing. We have heard nothing.

And yet, it seems to me that this is flagrant. No one can begin an inquiry because there are no investigative powers. As I said earlier, four other countries—including the United States, Australia and the European Union countries—have these investigative powers. Why do we not have such investigative powers? This is what I want to see for Canada and Canadian consumers: I want the Competition Bureau to have true investigative powers.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Monsieur Vincent.

Now, I believe that the government—

[Mike Lake, Conservative, Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB]

I think we're okay over here.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

—has no more questions, so we'll go to Mr. Masse.

Mr. Masse, I understand that you just have one question, and I understand that the Liberals have a couple of questions. We'll deal with what business is at hand after that.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to give Monsieur Vincent a chance to answer some indirect criticism of his bill, in terms of his strategy, because I don't think it's fair.

Bringing forth bills, the government members often decry that if they're so complicated, basically, they'll destroy all kinds of things and the earth will be swallowed whole. Here we have a bill that is very much scoped and can improve legislation, as opposed to attempting to revise the entire Competition Bureau.

Was it your intent to make this as simple as possible, so that the Competition Bureau could then prescribe the remedies and the regulatory ways to go about this new power?

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

Indeed, this bill does not have 7, 8 or 10 clauses, it just has one. So I think that the bill is clear. I want the Competition Bureau to have investigative powers. However, I did not want to provide details about a wide variety of things because that would diminish the bill. This is a bill that will give the Competition Bureau investigative powers so that it can do its job.

We know that the budget of the Competition Bureau is only $39 million per year, which is not a great deal of money to do inquiries throughout Canada into all industry sectors. I realize that there is a lack of resources and money and I do believe that this money should be used to protect both Canadian and Quebec consumers.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

And we have heard that testimony here, as you know, in the past. The Competition Bureau has been here over the years I've been here, identifying the clear trouble it has doing its job without the proper resources. That's no fault of the people who are there by any means, and it should be strengthened, given some of the things we've seen with regard to food safety and product safety in this country and a number of other issues that have an effect.

I'll leave that there, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to thank all the witnesses for coming today.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Mr. Masse.

We'll go now to Madam Coady.

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Thank you very much.

Again, thank you both for being here today.

Thank you, Mr. Vincent, for bringing forward this legislation.

As I understand it, Bill C-452 would empower the Commissioner of Competition to initiate investigations. I think that's the key wording here—“initiate investigations”—and to be able to take action.

My first question is to Monsieur Vincent. Are you concerned, or can you think of any safeguards we may want to bring forward to ensure that there are not any, as I'm going to call them, frivolous complaints brought forward? We're strengthening the powers of the commissioner and allowing that commissioner to have those powers to act as well. Are you at all concerned that we may need safeguards to make sure that the complaints are actually founded?

[Robert Vincent, Bloc, Shefford, QC]

There may be a need for some safeguard measures.

Nevertheless, the ancestor to the Competition Bureau was established almost at the same time as Confederation, namely in 1872. I think that it has always had investigative powers, since 1872, almost at the time of Confederation in 1867. Changes were then made over the years, particularly in 1952. At this time it was given even more powers. It was because industry was able to do some things that were not proper. We had a type of system like the one we have today. Then there were further modifications made in 1976 which gave even greater powers to the Competition Bureau, powers that were removed in 1986 by the Conservatives.

That is why I think that the Competition Bureau has enough experience enabling it to initiate inquiries. I have complete faith in them, and they should be able to launch inquiries as they see fit, but with powers that enable them to do the job properly.

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Thank you very much for that.

Mr. Bilodeau, I'm concerned about resources available. I have two questions for you actually. One is around the resources. Are you concerned that, having these additional powers, you would not have the resources to be able to carry out the tasks that have been mandated?

My second question is that, as I understand it, I'm sort of hearing from you that you already have these powers to carry out investigations, in the broader respect, for an entire industry. First of all, clarify whether you can do it for an entire industry. Second of all, you already feel you have the powers this particular piece of legislation is giving to you, and if that's your point, then why are you concerned about this particular piece of legislation if it just clarifies that you have that power?

[Richard Bilodeau]

I think my answer to your first question will probably answer your second one.

We are very concerned about the ability to conduct sector inquiries, because it could distract and could take our focus away from enforcing the new amendments that we got in 2009, and some that came into force in 2010. So we do have a very busy—

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

So is that a resources question, then, more so than...?

[Richard Bilodeau]

We have a finite amount of resources, as any organization has. We're given the resources, both financial and human, that we have. So we have to work with that, and if we are to undertake market-sector studies, there is a risk they will detract from our key enforcement practices. But we do have the power, and we've done these studies in the past, and we've been able to make recommendations. There have been changes in the industry that were brought about through the recommendations made in those reports.

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

So with this legislation, you think (a) that you already have these powers, (b) that it will cause a concern about resources, and (c) that you don't need the clarification? I asked you three questions.

[Richard Bilodeau]

We don't need the reclarification. The amendments in 2009 gave us the clarity we needed, particularly in regard to cartels. Before, there was a lot of ambiguity surrounding when we could act to take cartels. The amendments gave us those powers.

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Just for clarity—

[Richard Bilodeau]

Sure.

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

—you're saying that you already have these investigative powers.

[Richard Bilodeau]

That's right.

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

Why wouldn't you accept some of these minor amendments, then? If you think you have clarity already, this will only give you more.

I'm going to turn it over to my colleague, Mr. McTeague.

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

No, you won't. Nice try.

[Siobhan Coady, Liberal, St. John's South—Mount Pearl, NL]

It doesn't make sense to me. You already have these—

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Thank you, Madam Coady.

Go ahead, Mr. Stanton.

[Bruce Stanton, Conservative, Simcoe North, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I appreciate the opportunity to ask a question. In private members' business, we all get an opportunity to find out and understand more.

I too was on this committee in the 39th Parliament avec M. Vincent, un collègue.

I have one question to Monsieur Bilodeau. Mr. Vincent said that the commissioner cannot begin to conduct an investigation until there is a sign-off by a judge. Am I correct in that?