Evidence of meeting #55 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was bell.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Rocky Gaudrault  Chief Executive Officer, TekSavvy Solutions Inc.
George Burger  Advisor, TekSavvy Solutions Inc.
Matt Stein  Vice-President, Network Services, Primus Telecommunications Canada Inc.
Jean-François Mezei  Telecommunications Consultant, Vaxination Informatique, As an Individual
Paul Andersen  President, egateNETWORKS Inc.
Alain Bergeron  President, Board of Directors, Oricom Internet
John Lawford  Counsel, Public Interest Advocacy Centre

4:35 p.m.

President, egateNETWORKS Inc.

Paul Andersen

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

We have given our customers access to services such as IPv6, static addressing, voice over IP, hosted PBX services, and managed private networks, just to name a few. Our smaller size also attracts many customers who prefer dealing with a nimble organization that can offer them a custom solution to meet their unique needs. We provided many of these services long before incumbents did, and in some cases they still do not offer these services.

A common and fundamental misconception is that companies such as mine simply resell a Bell retail service at a lower cost. This could not be further from the truth. The service we lease from Bell is just one of the elements required to give an end-user full service. We provide all the equipment at the customer's premise and deal with internal wiring issues. We have to lease or build facilities to connect to Bell's network. We invest heavily in infrastructure such as data centres, routers, switching equipment, along with a large set of servers to handle a variety of functions, including authentication, DNS, customer management portals and billing systems, not to mention all the associated staff. We also need to build out a network so that we can take the end-user's connection, of which Bell provides the last mile, and transmit their data all across the world. This is expensive and complex to do.

We make decisions on how to build this technology so we can find ways to differentiate our service from the incumbents'. Such differentiation gives the consumer more choice and available offerings and brings price discipline to the market. However, recent decisions by the CRTC, such as the recent UBB decision, the traffic management decision, and several others, have diminished our ability to compete effectively.

The first arm of Bell's strategy is to dictate the business model that competitors will be forced to use so as to ensure that consumers will not have motivation to leave them for a competitor. The restrictions Bell has placed on its own users has degraded their end-user service. It's natural for these users to seek providers like us, who manage our network differently and do not necessarily impose such restrictions.

The second arm of the strategy is to make it difficult or impossible for providers to build their own facilities. Remember, the claim is that we are not building facilities, but the strategy is to make it unprofitable or impossible for us to do. In this regard, the commission disallowed independent providers from being able to offer a service named ADSL-CO. This would have incented competitors to build facilities and connect at the closest feasible point to the end-user. Allowing this service would have encouraged facilities-based competition, eliminated the competitors' traffic from Bell's network, eliminated a lot of the congestion, and allowed the competitor to provide a more robust set of competitive options to the end-user. Most importantly, as a mandated essential service, ADSL-CO would have required Bell to provide this service to us at a price that recovers all their costs plus a healthy profit. Such a service would drastically lower the costs to us and such savings would be passed on to the consumer.

The basic story endlessly repeated by the large carriers is that we are merely resellers, and in some fashion parasites that inhibit needed investments. On this false premise, much damage has ensued. Usage-based billing is a case in point. UBB has been applied to wholesale services. Retail-style UBB fees should not be applied to the wholesale access Bell is required to offer.

My main concerns are as follows.

First, I would like to continue dispelling the myth that competitors are getting some kind of free ride for their heavy users. Competitors already pay fees proportionate for the amount of capacity that our customers use on Bell's facilities. The CRTC UBB proceedings have also made it clear that Bell's proposed UBB rates have no cost-based underpinning. Usage charges, as proposed, are almost, if not exclusively, pure profit.

Secondly, we are completely opposed to the concept of per end-user usage billing. A usage component, if appropriate, should be applied only on an aggregated basis--that is, on the whole competitor leasing and not each end customer of that competitor. Allowing Bell to charge each of my customers in the same manner as Bell's own retail services eliminates my ability to differentiate my product. The proposed rates allow Bell to simultaneously gouge us, their competitor, and completely limit our ability to offer differentiated services that could attract customers away.

It is important to understand the underlying game plan. Everything will soon be distributed over the Internet. Canadians will send and receive ever larger amounts of data. The caps and charges put in place by Bell discourage usage growth. Why, when the world is going toward greater usage, are we moving towards limiting it? How can this be good for innovation, productivity, and our international competiveness?

We are grateful that the government recognizes the problem by dealing with the recent UBB decisions of the CRTC. We are also hopeful that the CRTC will use this as an opportunity to embrace an approach to wholesale regulation that is more effective at disciplining the market power of the incumbents and promoting competition.

Thank you for your time, Mr. Chair.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Thank you very much, Mr. Anderson.

That was very good, reining it right in.

Now we'll go on to Monsieur Bergeron, for six minutes.

4:40 p.m.

Alain Bergeron President, Board of Directors, Oricom Internet

Good afternoon.

I would like to begin by thanking the Chairman and the committee members for this opportunity to appear before you.

My name is Alain Bergeron. I am the Chairman of the board of Oricom Internet. Oricom Internet is an Internet service provider based in the city of Quebec, and was founded in 1995. Though its client base is in Metropolitan Quebec, it has many clients throughout the provinces of Quebec and Ontario. The company offers a range of services to both residential and business customers.

Oricom's offering to residential clients differs from that of the big players. The company has invested heavily in voice over Internet Protocol technology, referred to as VoIP. It thus provides its residential clients with local call services at very competitive rates, so they do not have to sign up for the three-service bundle packages with the big players in order to get an attractive plan.

Oricom also has a VolP and Internet bundle plan that is very popular with consumers, who continue to obtain TV from an incumbent. This offer also proves to be an unrivalled offer for younger consumers who no longer use the traditional television and find themselves penalized by the incumbents if they do not take the incumbents' three-service bundle. Oricom's offer also allows consumers to choose between cable and DSL technologies without having to change the service provider. Finally, about 20 rural communities enjoy wireless high speed Internet using Oricom's technical support and network infrastructures.

Furthermore, Oricom's offering to business clients differentiates itself from major service providers like Bell or Telus by offering the setting up of private networks for small businesses, whose requirements are different than those of large-scale organizations. Oricom can offer redundant links over diverse technologies such as fibre optics, DSL, cable or wireless, which major players like Bell or Vidéotron don't bother considering in their offerings. As regards services for the colocation of servers, only a few service providers such as Oricom offer this service in the Quebec area. This service, intended for medium-size firms, is appreciated by businesses that require hands-on contact with their servers. Such proximity facilitates their efforts to comply with the new risk management requirements with a deployment of data links, which is simpler than always having to connect with the colocation sites of Montreal or Toronto.

The latest measure, which is now being debated, is usage-based billing, which, if applied at the wholesale level, will further reduce Oricom's ability to differentiate its services, besides adding a serious financial problem. In fact, Bell will now be authorized to impose virtually the same ceilings for Oricom users as to its own retail users. The dissuasive amounts charged are based on Bell Canada's retail price with a small discount. The decision therefore leads one to believe that only Bell's network is affected by the traffic of Oricom users. That is absolutely untrue. In the costs of a service provider like Oricom based in Quebec, network costs other than those billed by Bell Canada are significant, and proportionally similar. Therefore, Bell's usage-based billing regime is punitive.

Another problem is that the service provider has to assume the risks related to recover the usage fees from its customers. It can no longer cancel usage fees in cases where the customer has been the victim of a virus that has caused higher than expected Internet usage.

Oricom Internet is not opposed to the imposition of traffic control measures of an economic nature at the retail level. The user pay principle is one of the principles espoused by Oricom, whether it is for business or residential customers. Oricom does not offer anybody an unlimited plan. It is one of the company's distinguishing features. Oricom would however like to point out that it should be perfectly feasible, economically speaking, to have a model at the retail level based on unlimited use. In such a model, the peak-period performance and certain other technical characteristics would be different, but would undoubtedly cater to a type of customer. That is the beauty of a playing field with healthy competition.

If the rates charged to Oricom were only cost-based, as is presently the case for the telephone services offered by telephone companies to competitors, we would not be here today. In such a context of healthy competition, the rates paid by users, including by the high data volume users, will very likely be lower, compared with a model that forces competitor retail prices to mirror those of the incumbent carriers.

I would like to remind the members of the Committee that the discussion here is not about the Internet access that is provided by our own infrastructure, but rather our access to the end client. For Bell, this access is of two kinds: the wire between the central office and the end-user's home, and the aggregation network between the Bell and Oricom centres. Oricom would also like to point out that Bell's aggregation network is also used by Bell to transport its IPTV, which is not subject to usage-based billing, without this traffic being taken into account for its own customers. If competitors want to offer such a service, their IPTV traffic would be subject to these charges under the usage-based billing decisions made by the CRTC.

If usage-based billing of Oricom traffic is required to ensure that incumbent carriers recover all of their costs, which we doubt, it should be based on overall usage and not that of a single client. The links between the central offices and homes are not affected by end-users traffic. Moreover, this overall usage should be charged based only on the actual cost of the incumbent companies. It is a matter of equity, incentive to innovate and healthy competition in a constantly evolving market. Who can forecast today the volume of data that will be required by users in a few months' time? Should the decision be left solely in the hands of the duopoly, which is interested in concentrating and limiting access to certain content that they will like to reserve for themselves?

We are grateful that the Government has recognized this problem and we hope that the CRTC will change its approach to regulation in light of the concerns raised.

Thank you for your attention. I'd be delighted to answer your questions.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Thank you, Mr. Bergeron.

We now go to Mr. Lawford for six minutes.

4:45 p.m.

John Lawford Counsel, Public Interest Advocacy Centre

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, committee members, Mr. Clerk and staff, my name is John Lawford and I am counsel at the Public Interest Advocacy Centre, PIAC. With me is Janet Lo, also counsel at PIAC. We are here today to represent PIAC and the Consumers' Association of Canada in your study of usage-based billing and its treatment by the CRTC.

I suspect that many of you have already read Bell Canada's defence of usage-based billing in the Financial Post of last week, the follow-up piece from yesterday, and also a response from TekSavvy, who are here today.

Mr. Bibic of Bell Canada stated that “the controversy has been wholly built on myths and misinformation". We agree, but they are Bell's myths.

4:45 p.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

4:45 p.m.

Counsel, Public Interest Advocacy Centre

John Lawford

Bell says that few customers will be affected by across-the-board usage-based billing: only 2% of users. This is misinformation. All customers, whether they take their Internet service from Bell, Telus, a cable company like Shaw or Rogers, or an independent ISP, such as TekSavvy or those others who are here today, are deeply affected. This includes those users who will never notice that they will be facing these charges. It also includes all those who will be facing the new charges, and this group will be growing the fastest , especially as Canadians' Internet usage continues to increase and become mainstream with more video and data-rich content. This group will also be affected because the result of the CRTC's UBB decisions are that there is no more market pressure to keep retail Internet service prices down. This is because the "wholesale" rate is now the telco or cableco retail rate minus the tiny discount of 15%.

When incumbent telco-based ISPs and cableco ISPs raise rates, it will be in the interest of "competitive" ISPs to match their service pricing. Indeed, they will have to. Thus, all high-speed Internet users in Canada will soon pay too much for Internet, and there will likely be large price increases soon. This is what has enraged the average Canadian Internet service users. They are tired of slow, expensive broadband service, and they fear much worse.

Bell Canada also provides a devil for their story: the "heavy user". This, again, is a mythical creation. First, Bell is compensated for the traffic it carries on its network for competitive ISPs. The CRTC has set rates, based on Bell's and other ISPs' costs, that fully compensate Bell. Bell doesn't lose any money on wholesale traffic. What Bell does lose is the chance to sell its retail at its own too-high prices with its own too-low data limits. We call that competition. This competition relies on mandated access--it's true--but the CRTC agreed that this was the only way to avoid a telco and cableco duopoly that would not lower prices, nor improve service.

Second, heavy users can, logically, impact the network only at peak times. If the goal is to reduce congestion at peak times, pricing measures should penalize anyone using the network at peak times. Any other pricing method is profit-making and is not targeted to capacity. Also, imposing usage-based billing on its wholesale customers' own customers is price maintenance. Bell and the other ISPs would say the CRTC has approved the UBB rate structure, so it cannot be "price maintenance". But whether it is, legally, under the Competition Act, or not, there is no denying that the CRTC has become so muddled in its decision-making that it is enabling retail price maintenance, in fact. Imposing UBB on the retail market at the wholesale supplier's rate means the only rate in the market is the wholesaler's. This is bad enough, but it's magnified out of all proportion when that wholesaler also has a retail service, as do Bell and all of the other major telcos and cablecos across Canada.

Third, Bell's claim that expensive networks are made costlier by small ISPs is simply untrue, at least as far as the public can see. Why? Because Bell refuses to provide any public information or evidence that their network is congested at peak times or that the users it says are congesting the network are indeed the source of that congestion, and, most crucially, it refuses to provide any evidence that UBB is tailored to reducing that congestion. Bell knows what capacity it sells to the ISPs wholesale. If this is the case, then Bell must be avoiding provisioning enough capacity to handle its own retail traffic at peak times.

Why, then, are we here? Time precludes us from going into the finer details of various CRTC decisions and tariff notices and the effect on innovation of all this, and, crucially, the effect of the 2006 policy direction. However, we welcome your questions on these points, and in closing wish to thank the committee on behalf of consumers for taking the initiative to acknowledge Canadians' displeasure with retail Internet service and its regulation in Canada.

Thank you.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Thank you very much, Mr. Lawford.

Thank you to all the witnesses.

Now on to Mr. McTeague for five minutes.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Thank you, witnesses.

I'm going to go very directly to your question, Mr. Lawford, regarding the 2006 policy direction. My understanding is that it forced the CRTC to trust market forces. It was done prematurely, against the advice of the technology panel review, and yet we are left with a decision that is--at least for most objective analysts--confounding.

I'm wondering if the effect of the policy review.... I understand some of your predecessors in terms of the panellists--TekSavvy--didn't really get into this at all. But it surprises me, because I think the origins very much relate to a concern we had as Liberals, when the government under Maxime Bernier decided to rush headlong into this.

Now we have a CRTC whose hands may very well be tied, not able to make decisions--proper decisions that are pro-competitive--or yet alone understand the innovative curve that lies ahead. I have described that probably more bluntly.

Cisco Systems in the United States has made it very clear that in the next four years 90% of the content on the web will be video. This is obviously an emerging problem that the Government of Canada seems unwilling to accept, and decisions made at the last moment to overturn--as they did with Global Live, or in this case--seem to me to be based on rule of thumb rather than any particular regulatory rules that might actually help foster competition.

Your thoughts, Mr. Lawford.

February 8th, 2011 / 4:50 p.m.

Counsel, Public Interest Advocacy Centre

John Lawford

The policy direction has caused much consternation among consumers, and I think you will continue to see problems like this bubble up to the political level if it stays completely as is.

4:50 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Should the direction be revoked?

4:50 p.m.

Counsel, Public Interest Advocacy Centre

John Lawford

There are two courses. One is revoke the policy direction. There have been a number of decisions on social measures that we find very anti-consumer-protective, and also have not come through on the competition side. The other way of doing it is to clarify--again--what it means, and the interpretation, unfortunately, that seems to have come out of the policy direction is that there has to be this competitive neutrality.

The way I read the policy direction, that's wrong. When we're talking about economic measures, there doesn't have to be any symmetry between cable and telephone. There only has to be efficient entry of competitors and no extra support of competitors where their entry would be inefficient.

So we're going to go back in this next 60 days and make these arguments about the policy direction to CRTC. But if they don't accept it, there are some courses open. The government could go through section 8 and modify this thing again, or it could just take a look at it and say it was a mistake, the CRTC can't handle this responsibility.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Mr. Lawford, as a background to that, the TPR advised the government to take the creation of a tribunal--a competition telecom tribunal--as a further protection in 2005, and that was ignored by the government in 2006.

I'm hearing two concerns. There's a lot of expertise in the telecommunications sector and there are competition issues here, restraint you refered to as price maintenance a little earlier on the retail side.

It seems to me that the government over there has decided to forget and throw out the wisdom in favour of some facile quick-fix ideas that have ultimately come back to hurt them and hurt consumers. They've opened the Pandora's box.

I'm wondering what your thoughts are on why the government ought not to consider a specialized tribunal to handle these kinds of matters. Because in 60 days we're going to be back to the same drawing board. We're going to be coming back with a decision by the CRTC saying they're not changing.

4:55 p.m.

Counsel, Public Interest Advocacy Centre

John Lawford

Part of the telecom policy review panel's recommendations were taken and part were not. That one about the competition telecom tribunal was not taken up. I think it would have helped, because the kind of expertise you need in this case needs to have more competition law informing it.

So I think if you're going to take one, you should have taken both, or neither. I'm not sure if that answers your question, but it's missing this other piece.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

Thank you, Mr. Lawford.

I would now like to ask the other two witnesses some questions.

Is there enough bandwidth in this country? We've had it very eloquently said that bandwidth is out in the air, it's open, it's who actually grabs it, it's public.

Mr. Bergeron, what do you think?

4:55 p.m.

President, Board of Directors, Oricom Internet

Alain Bergeron

I can tell you about the network in the Quebec City region, given that that is where we are interconnected.

Obviously the more traffic that is generated, the better it is for the industry and customers.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Dan McTeague Liberal Pickering—Scarborough East, ON

But are the prices it is proposed to bill your company justifiable from the standpoint of the costs of supplying that bandwidth?

4:55 p.m.

President, Board of Directors, Oricom Internet

Alain Bergeron

Everything is more expensive in Quebec City. However, the amounts charged by Bell, for example, for the connections—we call it the big pipe—aren't a problem. Where there is a problem is that in addition to paying for a full pipe, there is double billing at the end to compensate Bell in the competitive retail market. That means that if Bell's customers have limits, then in addition to paying for Bell's full pipe, we are going to bill our customers for a limit. It amounts to double billing.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Merci, Monsieur Bergeron.

Now on to the Bloc. Monsieur Cardin, for cinq minutes.

4:55 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

I happened to run into a Bell representative. He told us that for many years, Bell, Rogers and Vidéotron have already been doing usage-based billing. It exists, and you probably do it too.

I was assured that the CRTC decision was simply a matter of relations between Bell and the suppliers. That was the only place where it was going on. It was not supposed to have a direct impact on billing to the suppliers' customers or resellers.

Can you explain Bell's interpretation and your interpretation for me? At an upcoming meeting we may ask the Department how it sees it, because we know how the CRTC sees it. We will ask how the Department or potentially the Minister sees it.

Can you explain this difference in interpretation for me?

4:55 p.m.

President, Board of Directors, Oricom Internet

Alain Bergeron

I think Bell has persuaded the CRTC to think that what it sells to the suppliers, like Oricom, represents nearly 100% of the costs, which is completely false.

That is where the problem lies, quite simply. How can we verify what Bell is saying, that the bandwidth costs that Oricom's customers generate for Bell are causing it enormous financial problems? That is absolutely false.

Unfortunately, Bell has done its homework well in persuading the people in charge of regulation that this is right. The CRTC agreed to review that position today. So we have hope that there will be a correction in that regard at least.

5 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC

Just to give what I was told some significance, how would you explain the increase that might be passed on to the public, to Internet users, Mr. Lawford, given usage-based billing to the companies?

5 p.m.

Counsel, Public Interest Advocacy Centre

John Lawford

You're asking me how the CRTC explains it, or...?

5 p.m.

Bloc

Serge Cardin Bloc Sherbrooke, QC

No. Are you convinced that this will run directly counter to the public interest?

5 p.m.

Counsel, Public Interest Advocacy Centre

John Lawford

There should be a wholesale market so there is competition. Otherwise, first, you have only baby Bells, if I can put it that way, that are reselling exactly the same thing.

Second, if I am a wholesaler, it is up to me to decide how I earn my money. If it is from unlimited access and the market supports that, fine. For consumers, it is better to have those people.

People are mainly going to stay with Bell, but a fair number of them are going to choose somebody else. That will bring discipline to the market. We may get lower prices, or less of an increase.