Industry Committee on Oct. 30th, 2012

[Dan Harris, NDP, Scarborough Southwest, ON]

Thank you.

I'm going to be really brief. Mr. Lake raised the point about that 2007 study, and kind of alluded to how it was the opposition that was a barrier there.

But at that time, since the government was in the minority, it was actually the opposition that had the majority in the committee and got those recommendations passed. Of course, the government controls the agenda in the House, and that's why we haven't seen that yet, because it hasn't been a government priority.

I'm going to let Mr. Kennedy take over now and ask some good final questions.

[The Chair, Conservative, David Sweet]

Mr. Stewart.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. McDougall, what is a research and technology organizational model?

[John McDougall]

If you go around the world, what you'll find is that there are many organizations that call themselves research and technology organizations. They have, typically, common characteristics. They have differences too, but the common characteristics are that they tend to be more outcome-oriented, they tend to be public interest-based, and they tend to have strong relationships with other parties.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

So this is what you're moving towards, I understand, or at least where you're....

The NRC really wasn't that, then, prior to you coming on board?

[John McDougall]

The NRC actually was operating over the last 15 years or so very much like a university without students. That's the fundamental difference.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Okay. So you're making it again more outcome-driven, and based on metrics, and—

[John McDougall]

That's correct.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Are those going to be monitored internally, or is that—

[John McDougall]

They'll be internally monitored and published.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

And published: right.

Could you give us an example of some of the metrics? You touched on it before.

[John McDougall]

The kinds of impacts that start to become important, as opposed to the outcomes that you were describing earlier, of publications and so on, are things like the jobs that are created, the increased sales in companies. It's very much the economic impact.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

So is it almost exclusively economic impact, or are there other kinds of wider contributions?

[John McDougall]

As I said in the opening remarks, it's really a socio-economic impact, so you're looking at other things as well. We're concerned about the fact that internally we have reasonably happy employees, that the customers are satisfied with what they're getting, and these kinds of things as well.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Do you expect to train students in the NRC?

[John McDougall]

Not as a predominant thing, but it will happen. It's not a fundamental job of NRC. It's a fundamental job of academia.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

But it has been a large part of its past mandate. Is that something you're moving away from?

[John McDougall]

That's why it became very academic. It gradually drifted to be quite academic, and we're drifting it back to be less so and to let the academics do the academic.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Okay.

Are there any new mechanisms for collaboration with universities, for example?

[John McDougall]

The collaboration has now become a value of the organization. Collaboration was actually not very high in the past, and now it's fundamental in everything we do.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Is there a formal mechanism for that, or is it just as it happens?

[John McDougall]

The mechanisms that lead to collaboration are that you design what you're going to do together with the partners that should be at the table. That leads inevitably to collaboration.

The historic models that have been applied were “Here's what we're going to do. Do you want to participate?” Most of the time the answer was no, because they were doing something else.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

Okay.

This does seem to be a fairly fundamental shift that's happening within the NRC, moving from, as you said, a university without students, or training a few students, to now a concierge service for industry, perhaps through IRAP, perhaps through other programs.

Is that how you characterize it, essentially?

[John McDougall]

Well, I characterize it as going back to the job we're set up to do, which is what the act says.

[Kennedy Stewart, NDP, Burnaby—Douglas, BC]

It's fairly broad. I was looking at the act and it's a fairly broad mandate, so it could be interpreted in any way. You're just interpreting it in this particular way.