Evidence of meeting #75 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was clients.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Michael Johnston  President and Chief Executive Officer, TeamSpace Canada Inc.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen. Bonjour à tous.

Welcome to this 75th meeting of the Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology. We are continuing our study on the adoption of digital technology by Canadian small and medium-sized enterprises.

Before us today, by video conference, is Michael Johnston, president and chief executive officer of TeamSpace Canada.

Ladies and gentlemen, because we are meeting for only one hour, we're going to start with five-minute questions after Mr. Johnston gives his opening remarks, in an effort to try to give everybody who would like it an opportunity to have a question session.

Mr. Johnston, if you would like to go ahead with your opening remarks, please be as brief as possible.

3:35 p.m.

Michael Johnston President and Chief Executive Officer, TeamSpace Canada Inc.

Thank you very much for inviting me and letting me join you from another cloudy day in Halifax via video conference.

As you mentioned, I'm founder and president of TeamSpace. We're a custom software development and video game studio based here in Halifax. We maintain a full-time staff of roughly 80 people, the majority of whom live here in Nova Scotia, and some in Toronto, the United States, and England. Roughly 13 years old, we've grown steadily. We've been recognized five times as one of the fastest-growing companies in Atlantic Canada, and in 2011 we were named Nova Scotia's export company of the year.

Our core business is software engineering for world-class interactive projects. Many of our clients are global entertainment brands and broadcasters, such as MTV, Nickelodeon, Sony Pictures, Fox, and many others. They drive their businesses forward through the adoption and creative application of emerging technologies. To remain relevant to them, we must do the same.

For our part, in the past we used to maintain a lot of in-house IT infrastructure at TeamSpace. We had racks of servers, co-location facilities, and ran all of our internal systems on those servers. We built a lot of those systems ourselves or bought expensive ones off the shelf. It was costly up front and costly over time: there was constant updating as computers aged and software needs evolved, plus we needed a dedicated IT staff to look after all of that.

As a result we tended to invest a minimum amount required to get by. In recent years we've moved most of our systems to cloud-based offerings, rented monthly as needed from third-party providers. This trend has been game-changing for us and for many of our partners. It has allowed us to try new approaches and to stay current on more leading technologies without a huge upfront capital cost and risk from buying servers and on-premises software licences. We still invest heavily in workstation computers and mobile devices—smart phones and tablets—but the move to cloud services for our core operations has allowed us to keep pace with changes in our market.

We can test different tools to find the best ones for our business. We can afford to change and adopt platforms that our key clients use. This is important because it makes us more attractive to our largest clients because we're using similar platforms to do business and a similar vocabulary about how we work. Our people who work from multiple devices—laptops, tablets, phones—can access information when and where it's needed without complex set-up or technical support.

I would actually argue that at a macro level, we now spend more on IT than we used to under the older on-premises model of infrastructure, but we tend to spend on the right things that fit our business now. We can afford to take risks and try new approaches, helping us realize incremental value without massive capital outlay. To use a metaphor, we sample a lot of things from the menu now, rather than ordering one big entrée that we might not like.

I realize that the numbers show that companies in the U.S. tend to spend more on IT than Canadian firms do. My experience certainly aligns with that data. Perhaps it's an American ethos. Most start-up companies I know, including one that I founded in Boston in 1999, work hard to establish a dominant image from day one. That often means having the cool office space and all the latest gear.

My experience starting companies here in Canada would suggest that similar Canadian firms tend to err on the cautious side. We spend only what's needed to get by, and we build our brand a little bit more slowly. Perhaps that's cultural; perhaps that has to do with a different funding landscape between our countries. In general, there is simply more debt and equity financing available to U.S. companies than Canadian ones, certainly at least Atlantic Canadian ones. Perhaps it's simply because in general new technology is always available earlier in the U.S. than it is here. It generally costs less for the same items. A move to globally priced cloud services may help to erase some of those differences.

Looking at things through a human resources lens, there is a war for talent in many industries, especially the IT sector in which we operate. Companies like Google, who are well known for their office spaces and passion for technology, are defining the new normal for companies like mine. For our own part, we are presently planning an office move to a new, open, more Google-like space in the coming few months, almost entirely to help us attract and retain talent here in the region.

Companies in Silicon Valley, with whom I'm competing for talent, attract talent by posting pictures on their websites of what the employee's desk would look like when they start—loaded with all the latest gear from Apple. We're starting to do more of the same to attract and keep those people. It's costly, but we simply can't afford not to do it. I honestly wish we could do more.

I believe that spending on the right types of IT can drive both efficiency and growth for our company, but we need to see the value first, and then take the risk and invest. I believe our government may be able to help on the cost side of the equation, working creatively to reduce that risk to companies that are considering investing in IT.

Tax programs to encourage borrowing for IT expenditures might be considered, as might federal support for labour-based credits by industry. We have digital media and gaming tax credits here. They're administered provincially at the moment, but a look at things like that on the federal level might help to free up capital, which in my sector almost always gets reinvested into IT-driven innovation initiatives. Working across borders to bring costs for technology more in line with other markets might also help.

As a member of a company working in the global marketplace, I'd close by suggesting we need to review Canada's position in a global context, not just relative to the United States. Every month I'm bidding for work against new competitors out of Brazil, Costa Rica, Belarus, India, Israel, and other emerging economies.

I don't have the hard data in front of me. I expect that for now Canadian firms probably do spend more on innovative new IT than do firms in many of those countries, but I also suspect that the spending rates in many of those markets are trending upwards a lot more quickly than they are here in Canada.

Thanks. I'd be happy to open it up to discussion if I can be of any use.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Thank you very much, Mr. Johnston.

Colleagues, I'm going to have to keep your time much more succinct, if everybody's going to get an opportunity for five minutes during the hour that we have.

Mr. Lake.

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Johnston, for your testimony.

I just want to go to the basics to start, if I could. I didn't catch this: what exactly does your company do? I want you to elaborate a little bit more.

We have an hour with one witness. It's rare for us to have just one witness. So maybe you can take a couple of minutes to describe what it is your company does exactly.

3:35 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, TeamSpace Canada Inc.

Michael Johnston

Sure.

We're about 80 people. We're largely a services-driven firm with an original IP game development studio in-house as well.

The bulk of our clients are U.S. based. We have a few in the U.K., but most of our clients are large enterprise media and entertainment companies.

For concrete examples, we have a team of 20, out of our 80, who build almost all of Nickelodeon's and MTV's websites. We build video players that you can watch online video through for FOX, NBC, and a lot of broadcasters. We have a games development team, so we build casual, online, and mobile-based video games and apps for media clients. We have a corporate e-learning group that works for large enterprise, banks, and government. We also do some services work in the aerospace and defence sector.

The interactive technology we work in is very useful across media, entertainment, training, and simulation. We have found clients and partners we work with on a global basis who need that level of software engineering in the interactive space.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB

Now I'm really interested in hearing how you got from where you started to where you are now. When did your company start? Of the things you mentioned, what was the genesis of your company?

3:40 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, TeamSpace Canada Inc.

Michael Johnston

I'm a Nova Scotian boy. I took off to Boston to do a degree in physics and biochemistry at Harvard in the mid to late 1990s. Instead of going to med school, I ended up in IT in Boston in the late 1990s period, in the heyday of the dot-com era.

I built up a portfolio of client relationships and started a dot-com in health care IT in the late 1990s.

The bubble burst. My wife was pregnant with our first kid, and I managed to trick her into letting me start another company as long as it was north of the border, where we didn't have to deal with visa issues.

Back home to Nova Scotia we came. We brought a lot of our client contacts with us and started doing IT services work for customers I already knew out of the U.S. Most of those were in the corporate space. IBM was a big contact for us.

I did a lot of work building out corporate learning and software systems with a very small team here in Nova Scotia and a co-founder in the U.K.

I realized we were building scalable, interactive software in the early 2000s in a way that very few other firms were. I saw there was an opportunity to do that, not just in the corporate e-learning sector but in entertainment, in media, in gaming, in banking, in health care. There were a lot of sectors where rich interactive software that was built in a way that allowed it to scale to an enterprise-quality level was unique and rare. There weren't a lot of companies doing that.

If you combine that with the cost base of doing it from Nova Scotia, we actually had a pretty good global business. We kept our heads down and we hired a bunch of people slowly over time here in Nova Scotia. We have done very little work for Atlantic Canadian companies, very little work for Canadian companies. Most of our work is export-driven, bringing work into the region, employing 65 or so people here in Halifax and 15 or 20 abroad.

We've evolved by word of mouth, largely. We don't have an active sales force. We do interesting work that has an engineering component that's attractive to large companies and to a lot of partners in marketing and branding, and in creative industries, where there's a lack of understanding about how to build good software. We're largely software engineers, and that skill set has made us a valuable partner to a lot of companies that are trying to adopt technology quickly and trying to find creative ways of doing that in an affordable way.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

Mike Lake Conservative Edmonton—Mill Woods—Beaumont, AB

Thank you.

3:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Thank you very much, Mr. Lake.

We'll now go to someone from the NDP.

That would be you, Mr. Harris, for five minutes.

3:40 p.m.

NDP

Dan Harris NDP Scarborough Southwest, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair. We were going back and forth, figuring out our order.

Thank you for being here, Mr. Johnston.

The first question I want to ask you is this. You brought up the fact that as the company has evolved, you've moved away from all the in-house rack space, for instance, which of course you still have, and onto the cloud.

Where is the actual storage of the cloud computing that you're using? Is it located in Canada, in the United States, or elsewhere? I'm talking about the physical storage.

3:40 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, TeamSpace Canada Inc.

Michael Johnston

Honestly, for us it's a mix. In some ways we don't care. For the services we use to run our business, I'm not terribly concerned about where they exist. We'll rent a service from Salesforce for CRM. We're a Google Apps customer for messaging. For file storage, we use Dropbox wherever those servers live.

For our kind of run-the-business operations, it matters less to me where they are located. Honestly, we find it through whatever service is available and most affordable and solves the business need.

For the services we build and sell to our clients, however, it does matter quite a bit. We have health care clients for whom we build websites, or data collection utilities, or serious video games that have a data back-end component. Those health care clients care very much where those servers live, and are very much concerned about keeping them in Canada.

We have to seek out cloud service providers where we can spin up servers for those clients or where we can guarantee the location. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes that's very hard to pin down, in which case we have to go back to the model of buying a physical server and spinning that up in a facility in Halifax so that I can guarantee to Dalhousie University that in fact the data are here in Halifax.

That's certainly a problem. There are a lot of clients here in Canada who are concerned hearing about Patriot Acts and Obama regulations and watching for data sniffing—things that scare people.

So it's a concern. I think there's a lot of room to clarify some of that mysticism and help us as companies do a better job of communicating that to our clients. It changes every day. We don't have good answers, and I think we certainly need them.

3:45 p.m.

NDP

Dan Harris NDP Scarborough Southwest, ON

Thank you. That was exactly what I wanted to get an answer on.

Of course, we've heard previously at the committee about a lack of Canadian cloud computing storage space available. We've also heard the suggestion that creating that backbone should part of a digital economy strategy, which the government has promised and we have yet to see. We believe it's leading to Canadian businesses falling behind other jurisdictions in terms of adoption of digital technology; it's just one of the reasons.

Do you feel a cloud computing strategy should be part of an overall digital economy strategy for Canada?

Of course, you also mentioned the possibility of some incentives, for game development and elsewhere, at the federal level. I would think this would also potentially be part of a digital economy strategy, where we are trying to nationally build up this industry, which is a Canadian success story. Some reports were just published about the fabulous work that Canadian game developers are doing and the games they brought out at E3, which is happening right now.

Those are the things I wanted to ask you about, the digital economy strategy and those two elements—and that will probably use up all of my time.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

You have 60 seconds, Mr. Johnston, to answer whatever portion you can, please.

3:45 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, TeamSpace Canada Inc.

Michael Johnston

That's fine.

On the servers in Canada question, honestly, I would argue that cost is really the more important driver as we move to cloud. One of the biggest values of moving to the cloud now is the fact that we can try a lot of different technologies with a reasonably low barrier to entry.

Just having a service in Canada doesn't necessarily help me if I can ultimately get a cheaper service in the U.S. What I would rather see is this: play into that economy of scale, find services that are of value at a good cost, but help us clarify the regulations and help us understand how we can post information for a Canadian client—a health care provider, a government—on the most affordable service but in a way that we know where that data is living, who can see it, and what the privacy considerations actually are.

On the—

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Thank you very much, Mr. Johnston.

I'm sorry, but that's all the time we have.

3:45 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, TeamSpace Canada Inc.

Michael Johnston

That's fine.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative David Sweet

Mr. Braid, for five minutes.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Johnston, for being here this afternoon.

Staying on the topic of cloud computing, could you outline the various factors you weighed in making the business decision to go to cloud computing?

3:45 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, TeamSpace Canada Inc.

Michael Johnston

Sure. There were a couple, I suppose.

One of the big ones was ultimately cost, of course, but it was cost in the ongoing maintenance of the environment. It's very expensive to build up a server infrastructure, because it's constantly atrophying. The trouble with technology, as we all know, is that the second you buy it, it's out of date. It atrophies quickly. That's very expensive when you're talking about, for example, our company when it was smaller, when it was a company of 10 or 20 people buying expensive servers from IBM or Dell and finding an expensive place to host them.

It's very challenging to build up the base infrastructure needed just to open the doors, to put one piece of software on it, to allow us to run an HR system or something. We're talking about $10,000 to $20,000 to get started, whereas with a sort of cloud service, I can rent by the month. I can try before I buy. There are often free trials on software. It allows me to make incremental improvements to how I run my business without having to dedicate a huge capital budget just to give it a go.

It also—

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

I have—

3:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, TeamSpace Canada Inc.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Thank you. I have two more questions, and I just want to make sure I get the next two in.

Still on cloud computing, you mentioned that some of your clients require that the cloud servers be in Canada. You spoke about some of the myths around why clients require that. Are there any legitimate or legal requirements, to your knowledge, to require servers to be in Canada?

3:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, TeamSpace Canada Inc.

Michael Johnston

Honestly, I probably don't have as definitive an answer as I should. Honestly, I'm usually trying to dispel myths. I think it's a condition of fear more than objective facts.

As I mentioned, we have some clients in health care, and they seem to believe that there are certain regulations on HIPAA compliance and tracking user patient data. We do health care gaming and therapeutic tools and things. I've been told, at least, that there are regulations they need to comply with. Personally, I can't speak to that. I tend to answer the more sort of fear-based questions and rumours rather than specific facts.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Braid Conservative Kitchener—Waterloo, ON

Thank you.

Here's my final question. In all the various technology companies that I speak with in my riding of Waterloo, I hear two ongoing issues, concerns, or challenges. One is access to capital. The second is access to talent.

You referenced access to talent as an issue for you. I was just curious to know how you dealt with those two challenges in Halifax.

3:50 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, TeamSpace Canada Inc.

Michael Johnston

It's a constant challenge. I imagine that's true across Canada, but here, with a lower population base.... At the moment, we're trying to find 10 more mobile developers to satisfy a $1 million contract ask that I really don't want to lose, and honestly we don't know how to find that talent.

We invest a lot in technology. As I mentioned in my opening remarks, we're getting to a point now where we're buying a lot of interesting new tech and building another new office space full of interesting technology, including Xbox One devices, virtual reality tools, a theatre room, and arcade consoles, and we have all of the new Apple gear for every new employee, simply so we can attract people to either move here from another region or to come here after school. It's a war for talent and for finding creative ways of doing that.

Usually with young twentysomethings, the things that drive them are money and the ability to play with new toys and use new technology. I get to let them build interesting technology for our clients because they're world leaders in entertainment media, but they want the best tools to do it, and I don't blame them.

On the capital side, yes, there's a huge dearth of capital available here. The lending institutions aren't terribly interested in services companies like mine. The venture capital companies certainly aren't. So it's been a risk. We've grown by bootstrapping, which makes it difficult for us to move everybody.