Industry Committee on May 1st, 2018

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

There are two large investments in research infrastructure. One is for the universities and polytechnics, $1.3 billion through the Canada Foundation for Innovation. For the first time, after 20 years, this will now be sustainable funding. Researchers won't be wondering when the next bit of money is coming and asking themselves, “Do I apply for a grant now? Do I wait?” They've never been able to plan. They will now be able to do that. It's really exciting for the research community.

We also track where the infrastructure is across the country. Universities, colleges, and polytechnics can use it. Business can come and use it. On the government science side, we've been working with the science-based departments to develop, for the first time, a government science infrastructure strategy.

That is an investment of $2.8 billion. Many of our labs are 25 years old. It is time that they be updated. It will be exciting. Instead of one lab for one type of research, we want to bring together multiple experts so we can solve big challenges.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

I like one of the things you mentioned, that infrastructure is not just going to be limited to federal scientists. You also mentioned businesses. Can you elaborate a bit about how that's going to help our businesses?

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

I've had several long discussions with the Canada Foundation for Innovation on this. You can go on the website and see that it actually tracks where the infrastructure is around the country. CFI is really excited about this new investment, because it will give our researchers a greater opportunity to get state-of-the-art equipment. CFI is excited for businesses, how they might be able to use it and how there might be a sharing of equipment.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

There is great value in that. I've heard the same thing, Minister.

If we build this amazing new infrastructure, and we allow our businesses to co-operate with our scientists, it's not only going to help our businesses, but it's going to help that interlink that we've been studying. I'm very happy to see that our government is doing that.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

I'll just add, Frank, that the National Research Council also plays a role here. I think I mentioned earlier that it's a $540-million investment.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

I want to ask you about that.

Madam Minister, this is an important topic, not only for Canada as a whole, but also for Quebec, which uses a lot of resources for research, including the National Research Council. I know several companies that use it. This $540 million investment is extremely important.

Could you provide more details on this?

How is that going to help our businesses again?

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

I'm really pleased about this investment, the $540 million. It's the largest investment in the National Research Council in 15 years.

It has been described as the jewel in government research, and it plays such an important role. It does discovery research, but it also does the innovation side. It works with small businesses and medium-sized businesses. It brings together academics, business, and the government to help businesses address challenges, grow their business, and hopefully hire more people.

The way our new president Iain Stewart is looking at this is that he also wants to build stronger collaboration between the NRC, academia, and industry. In many areas, there may be an NRC facility on an academic campus, but there may be a few researchers going back and forth.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

That makes that link again, which we want.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

He wants to really strengthen that important link.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

I would agree with you. We've heard that often, that the businesses have to be linked more with our researchers. That way, we can transfer the technology. I encourage that, as well.

I have only a minute left, but I'll throw back something that was brought up by my colleague and that you didn't get a chance to answer fully. It's about how sometimes full-time equivalents are reassigned, and how the numbers may look.

We have an old saying that there are lies, darned lies, and statistics. I'll let you address those statistical anomalies, if you will.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

We researchers love statistics.

Under the previous government, AECL was to be shut down. These researchers have gone to another organization. That's one of the main reasons. The other reason is with regard to the classification.

I'm very focused on making sure that our government scientists have the funding they need to succeed, and that they have the labs and tools they need. That's one of the reasons we're bringing together the science-based departments in June, to talk about the needs of our government scientists.

[Frank Baylis, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you, Minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

Thank you very much.

We are going to move to Mr. Jeneroux.

You have four minutes.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

There's a lot to unpack in that last answer, Minister, but we'll leave that be.

You said something at this committee just a few moments ago that I think most Canadians will find shocking. You said that a chief science adviser who has now been in place for seven months would play no part in looking at the environmental assessment process of the carbon tax. I think that is shocking, but it's also very disappointing. You wouldn't look to the chief science adviser for her advice on a very scientific and evidence-based policy.

Why not, Minister?

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

I'm going to go back to the previous question you asked, Matt.

The number of federal personnel engaged in science and technology has actually increased since this government was elected.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Minister, we can argue—

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

If we look at 2015-16, we see that it went from 33,925 full-time equivalents to 34,484 full-time equivalents, and that's with the changes at AECL.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Minister, right here in your table, we see that the number of people involved in total science and technology, as well as in research and development, has gone increasingly in a downward trend since your government took over. I encourage you, Minister, to look at that CANSIM table, please.

Let's go back to the chief science adviser. I find it shocking that the chief science adviser was not part of the decision-making process. Why not?

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

I just want to finish this.

The shift of 2,873 full-time equivalents is explained by the restructuring that your previous government did around Atomic Energy of Canada Limited. These scientists are no longer employed by AECL, but by the Canadian National Energy Alliance, which is a private sector company.

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Minister, why was the chief science adviser not consulted on the environmental assessment process?

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

As you know, we put the chief science adviser in place to make sure that government science is made fully available to Canadians, that government scientists speak freely about their work, and that scientific analyses inform decision-making. She will regularly review the methods and integrity of the science used in impact assessments and decision-making, and there will be an annual report at the end of her year to the Prime Minister and me. That will be made public.

She put out a letter after her first 100 days about the work she's been doing. She hit the ground running. She has criss-crossed the country listening to the research community, because it's about rebuilding trust and—

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

Minister, it's up to you, though, to ensure that she is consulted on legislation that's imperative to your government's success. The fact is that you haven't consulted her on it, and you said earlier that you would consult her after the fact.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

Let me be clear. She did feed into the process for the new environmental assessment, which is—

[Matt Jeneroux, Conservative, Edmonton Riverbend, AB]

You said she didn't. You said she will be doing it after the fact.

[Kirsty Duncan, Liberal, Etobicoke North, ON]

There will be a review as well, but she did feed into this new environment assessment process that was brought in.

With respect, Matt—