Industry Committee on May 3rd, 2018

[Bardish Chagger, Liberal, Waterloo, ON]

I know you want me to go quickly, but I first have to give you some kudos. The office I now hold is the one that you were in, so in terms of some of the results we're seeing when it comes to tourism, I thank you for the work you did there. We'll continue to hold that portfolio strongly, I know, together.

With regard to small businesses, there are different ways to look at it. We do tend to look at the number of jobs. Small businesses tend to have 100 employees or less. That would be the ultimate definition.

[Maxime Bernier, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Do you know how many small businesses we have in Canada?

[Bardish Chagger, Liberal, Waterloo, ON]

We know that 99% of all businesses are small businesses. We can provide you with the number, which is 1,152,769.

[Maxime Bernier, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Thank you very much.

Minister Bains was with us last Tuesday. He said that his department gave $5.5 billion in grants and financial aid to for-profit corporations. Do you know how much was given to small businesses out of that $5.5 billion?

[John Knubley]

No, that's a number that we will need to come back to you on. As we indicated at that meeting as well, we will be coming back with further clarifications on the $5.5 billion.

[Maxime Bernier, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Can you come back at the same time with how many jobs that money created in small and medium-sized businesses?

[Bardish Chagger, Liberal, Waterloo, ON]

I'll just quickly add that this is something that's close to my heart. It's something that I am pushing every minister to really be able to advance. When we were looking at the supercluster strategy and making choices as to which superclusters we'd be supporting, one thing we looked at was the number of small businesses that were part of those clusters. I look forward to sharing those numbers as well.

[Maxime Bernier, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Perhaps you can give us the data also by province in terms of jobs created in small businesses with respect to that $5.5 billion.

Do you know Frédéric Bastiat?

[Bardish Chagger, Liberal, Waterloo, ON]

Personally?

[Maxime Bernier, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

No. Do you know this economist?

[Bardish Chagger, Liberal, Waterloo, ON]

Yes.

[Maxime Bernier, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Yes? I'm very pleased that you know him, because your policy is not in line with what he said and believed in. As you know, Frédéric Bastiat was an economist from France, born in 1801, so I don't think you had the opportunity to meet him.

That being said, he wrote the parable of the broken window, where he talked about what was seen and unseen. What you're doing right now is what is seen. We see all the money that you're giving to small businesses, but we don't see what happens when you tax small businesses to have that money and to give that to other small businesses. Frédéric Bastiat was a very well-known economist, and he said that what is unseen is not creating any wealth, because you are destroying wealth when you tax small businesses and all these corporations. We don't know how many jobs these corporations would have been able to create.

That being said, that has an impact. Do you believe in that parable of the broken window, that when you're giving money to businesses, you're actually destroying jobs in the private sector?

[Bardish Chagger, Liberal, Waterloo, ON]

I will commence by saying that we lowered the small business tax rate to 9%. We committed to doing that by 2019. As I responded to my colleague, I recognize the importance of collecting data. That's something we're taking seriously. Not only are we taking seriously the collection of data so that we have those numbers, but we also recognize the importance of having a full voice for small business at the cabinet table so that every decision that is made I am able to confirm—

[Maxime Bernier, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

You must argue for all the small businesses.

[Bardish Chagger, Liberal, Waterloo, ON]

If I could finish—

[Maxime Bernier, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Yes, I know, but you must argue for all the small businesses, because what you're doing right now is a little bit unfair. You are taxing all businesses. You gave grants to some specific businesses. A fair policy, and a policy that will create wealth, would be to lower taxes a bit, as you did for small businesses.

We have a huge challenge in Canada. As you know, Statistics Canada has told us that in the last five years private investment in Canada went down by 17%. We know that investment is the engine of economic growth, so we need more private investment. What do you think you're going to do for that?

[Bardish Chagger, Liberal, Waterloo, ON]

I will tell you that if you look at the investments which the government is making in small business and into the economy—because it's Canadians who create growth—our economy is in the best health we've seen in a long time. Our unemployment rate is the lowest we've seen in 40 years.

If you look at the return on the dollar—I'll go back to the supercluster strategy really quickly—we invested $950 million, expecting to have a return—

[Maxime Bernier, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Can you tell me how many small businesses receive money in the superclusters?

[Bardish Chagger, Liberal, Waterloo, ON]

Mr. Bernier, I think you asked for a respectful conversation. I think we need to be able to have one.

[Maxime Bernier, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Yes, but we know that time is very—

[Bardish Chagger, Liberal, Waterloo, ON]

I know—

[Maxime Bernier, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Yes.

[Bardish Chagger, Liberal, Waterloo, ON]

—but as you know, I'm never far.

[Maxime Bernier, Conservative, Beauce, QC]

Yes.

[John Knubley]

Minister, I think I can say that there are 450 firms in the supercluster program and—