Evidence of meeting #132 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was arr.
A video is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy
Thank you.
We're going to move to Mrs. Caesar-Chavannes.
You have seven minutes.
Celina Caesar-Chavannes Whitby, Lib.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'll split my time, if I have any remaining, with David.
Mr. London, I'll go to you, and I'm going to stick to the conversation about ARR, because there is some tension here. If we're going to resolve it, I think we should butt heads and try to figure out as much as possible while there are two opposing views here.
You said in your testimony, “In case I haven't been clear, we think the ARR is a terrible idea.” Mr. Vettivelu mentioned Annie Pootoogook. I think many of us remember her tragic death here in Ottawa in September 2016. We also know the story of her living on the streets, selling her art for a few dollars, and meanwhile having it in other galleries for thousands of dollars.
If the ARR is so terrible, what other mechanism would you suggest that would help create a fair balance for artists to be compensated for their work, particularly when you think of the limited access that indigenous artists especially may have in terms of geographical location and other barriers? What other mechanism would you put in place to create a balance between what they're getting paid and what is being paid in secondary markets?
Director, Art Dealers Association of Canada
It's a very good question, but again, that is not necessarily the best example. I was friendly with Annie. I knew her very well when she lived in Montreal. Unfortunately, she sold on the street for a fraction of what she was selling for to the co-operative. In order to maximize money to the artist....
As I said, it's perhaps a bad example, because had she.... There was a movement afoot to try to get her to go back up to Cape Dorset because of her problems living in Montreal, with alcohol and drug abuse. Finally, they got her to go back up to Cape Dorset on a sort of medical mission. She was accompanying her sister—Pia, I think it is—but Annie chose to come down about two or three days later. Unfortunately, she was a victim of her demons, but not of any art system that was trying to take advantage.
Whitby, Lib.
Okay, more broadly then, because we've seen that their revenues are decreasing, how, without ARR, do we balance this?
Director, Art Dealers Association of Canada
It's a very good question. The Inuit market is in decline, whether we're talking about the primary market or the secondary market. It's just not as popular as it was in the 1950s and 1960s. Production is very high, but the demand has decreased significantly. How do you increase the amount of money that an artist gets, if no one wants his or her work?
Whitby, Lib.
Are you saying that this is more of a market or business state of affairs than a matter of government intervention and solution?
Whitby, Lib.
Could I pose the same question to your colleagues here?
Executive Director, Canadian Artists' Representation
All three of our recommendations are things that we're asking the government to do: change the exhibition rights so that senior artists can get paid; add the artist's resale right so artists can continue to get paid for the work they're doing; and limit fair dealing so that people can continue to get payments that they were used to getting.
These all need to go in law, because if they aren't, people will not pay. That's the sad reality.
Whitby, Lib.
How complex or difficult is this to put in place in Canada?
Executive Director, Canadian Artists' Representation
We've had the benefit of looking at people who are doing it best in other countries—with resale, anyway.
We're not a copyright collective, so CARFAC and RAAV are not the organizations that would administer the resale right. We know the collectives that would, and we can give them best practices examples of how it's done. It can be fairly simple.
We know that in the U.K., which is a much bigger market, they have a pretty small staff. They've been willing to share with me how they invoice. They've shown me the forms they use. They've shown us everything.
Whitby, Lib.
So the administrative cost that was referred to can be mitigated by looking at other jurisdictions and following in line and making it better for the Canadian market.
Executive Director, Canadian Artists' Representation
Yes. In the U.K., they've said that it takes less than five minutes, and costs less than five pounds per quarter to administer it, on average.
Executive Director, Regroupement des artistes en arts visuels du Québec
What I can add is that for our collective—RAAV is 50% owner of the collective and CARFAC is 50%—we're already working on this system to make it very simple for art to be registered and to get the relevant information to make the ARR work. It is simple.
I was at the international conference in Geneva in April 2017. We had some very good testimony on how it worked and how it is going well. There are tweaks and things to be worked out, which is normal, but it works.
To also answer the question on why it should be a copyright issue, it's basically because the length of the rights of the ARR would be the same as copyright. That's why it should be linked to copyright. The easiest way to make it work is to link it to the duration of copyright. If you compare the laws, you will see that in some jurisdictions it's copyright, in others it's stand-alone, and in others it's another type of law. The easiest way to make it work in the Anglo-Saxon world is to link it to copyright.
Whitby, Lib.
I'm not sure if the analysts or the researchers know this, or if you have the answers, but is there an impact on the Canadian GDP of not having ARR? Have we looked at the economy in other jurisdictions?
Feel free to respond if you have an answer, Mr. London. Go ahead and jump in.
Director, Art Dealers Association of Canada
My answer would be those examples that I gave on the Australian auction market. The sales are going from $28 million down to $10 million, then down to $8 million.
When you think about art galleries and the people employed by art galleries—the art movers, handlers, etc.—there is a huge ancillary business in the art world that's affected if the market tumbles.
Whitby, Lib.
Please jump in, because otherwise this is not going to get on record.
Executive Director, Canadian Artists' Representation
In other countries, it's increased. In most countries, the market has increased since this was introduced. There are numerous neutral studies that say so.
Moridja Kitenge Banza President, Regroupement des artistes en arts visuels du Québec
I wanted to say that I'm a visual artist. My colleagues and I produce the works. If we weren't producing any works, this discussion wouldn't be taking place. We're discussing what's rightfully ours. We're asking for only 5%. Earlier, someone said that it was a nice project. It's not a nice project. It's something we need in order to improve our living conditions as artists, and it's important. It's not just a nice project that will look good on paper. No, it will improve our nice projects.
Earlier, we were talking about the black market. The black market exists in every area. The fact that a black market exists doesn't mean that laws aren't there to project us, and the fact that something doesn't work at first doesn't mean that it will never work. In France, it has been in place since 1920. It's now 2018. If it didn't work, 93 countries wouldn't have implemented it. It's something simple. Each member of Parliament here will find artists in their constituency. The living conditions of these people must be improved, outside of art.
Earlier, someone mentioned figures indicating that visual artists are the lowest paid artists. It's always the same issue. We always need to fight for our rights, to obtain a small portion. We're not asking for much, only a small portion. It will certainly be difficult at first. For all the legislation already implemented in Canada, it hasn't been easy. No legislation in the world has suddenly turned out to be simple.
