Industry Committee on Nov. 19th, 2018

[Michael Chong]

I understand that.

Look, it's important to acknowledge that the previous government made a mistake when it cancelled the mandatory long-form census. It was clear that Munir Sheikh resigned as chief statistician as a result of that, but your government has not done a very good job of managing Statistics Canada either.

You had Wayne Smith, the subsequent chief statistician to Munir Sheikh, resign in protest to your government's management of Statistics Canada. You promised to make Statistics Canada fully independent from the department in the last election campaign. On page 37 of your platform, you said you'd make it fully independent, but Bill C-36 doesn't in fact do that.

In fact, before the election you argued that the chief statistician should be nominated by an outside committee, but when Wayne Smith resigned, you unilaterally appointed his successor. Now we have the fiasco of this pilot project, where the proposal is to obtain the personal financial data of millions of Canadians at a granular level that's never been seen before.

You know, when people fill out the mandatory long-form census, they imply their consent or face consequences for not filling it out, and they know exactly what information they're providing to the Government of Canada. With this pilot project, you're basically getting the data through the back door, through the banks, and it's very personal information. It's about whether somebody purchased personal hygiene products at Shoppers Drug Mart, or whether they paid for psychological services at a therapist, or whether they purchased a beer at a bar, and when they did it. This is data that is far more intrusive than anything we've seen before at a level that would make Alphabet and Amazon blush. We're talking about very personal information from millions of Canadians—hundreds of thousands, if not millions of households.

This is why this has raised the ire of so many people. What's particularly egregious about this pilot project is that it's going to be used by some of the largest corporations in the world. Yes, we know that the data will be scrubbed and cleaned up and aggregated on a postal code basis, but nevertheless the reality is that this data is going to be used by some of the largest companies in the world in order to market their services to Canadians. Your government proposed to use the coercive power of the state under the Statistics Act to get this data. It's a big-time overreach on the part of your government, and I think it reflects poor management of Statistics Canada.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

You have about 10 seconds if you wish to answer.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

You're a very thoughtful individual with very thoughtful commentary. Unfortunately, I don't have much time to get into the details.

I may very quickly highlight a couple of key points. One is that this and any information Statistics Canada wants to obtain is designed to help develop good public policy. For instance, why do we need good-quality, reliable data? We want to make sure citizens get the appropriate support: the Canada pension plan or old age security or the Canada child benefit. I think we need to be mindful that a lot of the transactions are going online. Again, privacy and data protection are essential.

One thing is very important to note: Under section 17 of the Statistics Act, no government, no private entity, no large corporation can compel data from Statistics Canada, particularly personal data, which they have a track record of protecting. I think it's important to note that as well. This data is designed for public use, public policy for public good—good-quality, reliable data—but we have to underscore the importance of privacy and data protection. That's why the Privacy Commissioner is engaged, and that's why the chief statistician has made it very clear that he will only proceed if he's able to deal with those issues about privacy and data protection in a meaningful way.

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Jowhari, you have five minutes.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Minister, welcome to our committee once again.

I'd like to take our conversation in a different direction and get your feedback on USMCA and the impact it has had specifically on industry. One industry is the automotive industry. Can you give us an update on what's happening in that industry, as well as in aerospace? I understand that you're asking for about $30 million in the estimates to invest in aerospace. If you can give us some update on those two, I would appreciate it.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

In the USMCA, there was a lot of debate about dairy and supply management, and a lot of thoughts and feedback about the automotive sector. The current President said he would invoke section 232 on the automotive sector and impose a 25% tariff. We were very fortunate, because of the leadership of Minister Freeland, to shield the automotive sector. It's such a critical part of our economy: 500,000 direct and indirect jobs are connected to the automotive sector.

It's not only about the OEMs or the major automakers; it's about the supply chain and the number of people they employ throughout the country, not only in Ontario. We took very clear steps to protect that by making sure that production levels for the number of vehicles that are built, and also the parts that are sold, have significant growth potential. Part of the USMCA also changed the rules of origin for vehicle content, making sure there was a higher threshold for regional value content.

Currently, we're at 62.5% for regional value content for vehicles made in North America to local content requirements. That will go up to 75%. That creates more opportunities in the automotive sector. That complements our support. Since we've been in government, we've seen $5.6 billion invested in the automotive sector. Those are significant investments. People talk about how people view Canada. When it comes to the automotive sector, a lot of innovation and a lot of investments are occurring. That's translating into a lot of jobs, both being maintained and created on a going-forward basis as well.

That was a key aspect of the USMCA, to make sure that we not only protect the automotive sector, but set it up for success going forward. A high regional value content helps, and also the labour standards with Mexico, because now their labour standard employee costs have gone up to $16. A competitive advantage potentially existed with Mexico in labour costs, which now no longer is the case. The difference is much smaller. That makes Canada even more attractive as an investment opportunity. We're very pleased with the progress we've made, and now we look forward to working with the automotive sector to build a car of the future as well.

This supports what we've also done in the aerospace sector. Recently the Prime Minister announced significant investments in CAE from the strategic innovation fund to make sure it continues to be a global leader in flight simulation. They have also pivoted toward health and health simulation. There are great opportunities in Canada for investments, for growth and jobs, particularly in the automotive and aerospace sectors, two sectors that were part of industrial policy for decades and that have a bright future as well in some of the policies and programs we've put in place for innovation and trade.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

I have about a minute left. I want to go back to the funding request of about $7.5 million made under Statistics Canada. It's funding for the statistical survey operations settlement. Can either the minister or Mr. Knubley comment on that one?

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Yes, the deputy can speak to the specifics of what that's for. As I mentioned before, though, we do have a proud record when it comes to Statistics Canada. On day one, we reintroduced the mandatory long-form census. As we committed in the platform, through legislation, Bill C-36, we dealt with its independence, reinforcing and strengthening the independence of Statistics Canada.

Right now, we're going through a modernization process to make sure that it is able to succeed going forward in the new knowledge economy, to make sure that we use other datasets and administrative datasets to provide good-quality, reliable data for policy-makers.

With respect to the $7.5 million, Deputy, do you want to speak to that?

[John Knubley]

This is related to an HR issue. Some time ago, in 1985, the Public Service Staff Relations Board ruled that the long-standing interviewers who are used in the census process, for example, were actually employees of the Treasury Board. There continue to be payments as a result of this settlement.

[The Chair, Liberal, Dan Ruimy]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Albas, you have five minutes.

[Dan Albas]

Thank you again, Mr. Chair.

Minister, you said earlier that the information that would be used from this pilot project would be used for analysis for policy-makers. StatsCan repackages its data for private businesses to purchase. It's an endeavour that brought in about $113 million last year. Currently, 400 people are employed to help supply businesses with government data.

My question is, do you think the demand for this repackaged data from private companies will increase once your government starts collecting this information?

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

First of all, it's not our government—it's Statistics Canada that will make that decision. They've indicated that they will only proceed if they have dealt with issues around privacy and data protection. No personal information is ever sold by StatsCan, so I think you might be misinformed there.

Second, the $113 million you're referring to is for requests made by the private sector where they've engaged StatsCan to collect data. It's not data that StatsCan has and that they're selling to the private sector. I think you need to make sure that—

[Dan Albas]

Well, Minister, we had the chief statistician come in here and explain that sometimes companies will ask to have datasets—

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Correct.

[Dan Albas]

—and put them into certain ways so that they can better use them to sell their products.

Minister, you have to appreciate the point that this information would be highly valuable. As my colleague Mr. Chong has said, groups like Amazon already have large transactional databases of their own. To be able to break down, postal code by postal code, the granularity of what we're talking about would be highly lucrative for businesses.

If this program were to go forward, do you see an increased demand for those services?

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

That's a hypothetical. I don't know. Again, as you said, it's a pilot project that has not moved forward. Data has not been collected, and we don't know what data would or would not turn out at this stage.

What I can say is that having good-quality, reliable data is important. For example, with respect to the long-form census, when we made it voluntary, 1,128 communities did not have good-quality, reliable data. That also impacted small businesses. Businesses use that data—

[Dan Albas]

Minister—

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

—to make sure that they plan—

[Dan Albas]

—we're not talking about the past. We're talking about the future, and I'd like you to stay focused on something that's in your bailiwick right now. Specifically, I think that Canadians are not happy with that idea, and your government seems convinced that this is the only way that StatsCan can do this.

The chief statistician gave us this “Well, people don't want to take their cloggy logbooks around and write down every transaction.” Now, what was proposed, Minister, is light years ahead, and in fact it does seem to be more intrusive than anything. If this program were to move forward, would you require there to be consent?

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Again, this is a hypothetical. What I am getting at is that they will only move forward when issues around privacy and data protection are dealt with, and I think that's very important to note.

Our government has been very clear about protecting privacy. We brought forward regulations to PIPEDA to strengthen privacy legislation. We're actually undergoing consultations to further strengthen privacy laws. We recognize the importance of privacy and data protection, but we also acknowledge that Statistics Canada needs good-quality, reliable data, so this is why they need to engage Canadians to build that trust.

[Dan Albas]

Minister, again, you have to say that when both the minister and the Privacy Commissioner have to read in the paper what Statistics Canada is up to, there is a problem here. Parliamentarians—both Conservative and NDP—have raised those concerns, and I hope you would be looking at this and putting your foot down on this.

Again, when we talk about people who are receiving CPP, EI and other forms of government support, Minister, what about the dignity of those persons to have the privacy of their own transactions? Again, this is over a million people who would be affected just on the first round.

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

When it comes to privacy, I do want to highlight the fact that StatsCan has a tremendous track record of removing personal data. I cannot think of any data breach with the servers where personal information was compromised—

[Dan Albas]

Well, in the last census there was, and again, there are multiple cases where these things have been circumvented—

[Navdeep Bains, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

I'm talking about—

[Dan Albas]

Minister, I would simply suggest that you look at the chief statistician's testimony before this committee. I asked him if there is a “master key” that allows for those files to become un-anonymized, where you can actually say whose information it is and link that directly to transactions. He said that there was a capacity at any time, subject to policy.

Minister, to say that the data is going to be anonymized and thus that you can't link it to the original person is false.