Evidence of meeting #25 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was quebec.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
When we're using a really basic example like this, it should be something a small business owner should be able to do in two seconds and then get on with making their hats and their shirts, shouldn't it?
Past President, Intellectual Property Institute of Canada
Perhaps, but if you're going to invest in this brand and develop it over time and it's going to become what distinguishes you from all of your competitors, it may be that the trademark you choose in view of other trademarks that are out there may not be the best one. You may choose something pretty close to Coca-Cola, and they're going to knock you out once you get big enough to cause them some concern. It's good to know the lay of the land and to have someone who can search trademarks and help you pick one that's going to distinguish you and allow you to develop a brand that you can continue to invest in over time.
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
But once I get big enough, they're going to knock me out anyway.
Past President, Intellectual Property Institute of Canada
They aren't necessarily.
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
Here's another question, and I've dealt with this in my past work.
Suppose you have a great Canadian product and you're starting to sell in the U.S. You're getting a little bit out in the U.K. and in Australia and other places, and then the American company you're competing against says, “You're violating everything with what you're doing, so we'll see you in court in Texas.” At that point, everything you've done in Canada is pointless, because you're fighting all your court cases where you do all your business, in the United States.
What is out there for young Canadian firms to protect themselves in this situation? The Americans aren't interested in fighting us here; they're going to fight us on their home turf.
Past President, Intellectual Property Institute of Canada
Right. Usually the agent that you work with here in Canada works with a network of agents in other places where you ultimately plan to do your business. If we're talking about trademarks and the like, they help do searches of their registers as well as the registers here or other places where you plan to see your business growing, and they help find you a mark that's going to slide in between and not offend anybody. When it comes to patents, it's the same thing.
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
What if you have a brilliant university student, an engineering student or what have you, who has a great idea and who doesn't want to work for another company? They want to be an entrepreneur and develop their own great idea. They've applied for SR and ED, IRAP, and what have you. They've never taken the time to protect themselves in this area, and they leave themselves wide open to waste all the money the government has given them to do their SR and ED and everything else.
Is this something we should be looking at, and should we be saying “We don't want to move forward with any grants or anything until we make sure you guys are airtight with your idea.”?
Special Advisor, Intellectual Property Institute of Canada
That's a good point.
There's an issue we haven't raised today, but I think others may have raised it. You mentioned the SR and ED program. Your R and D costs are eligible to be covered by SR and ED, but your patenting costs are not, and that's something that should be considered. I'll give you an example, because you're right that you're investing government money in R and D, and you may not get any IP out of it that's owned by this company, or the company may go bankrupt and everything becomes public.
Conservative
Ben Lobb Conservative Huron—Bruce, ON
Communitech might be a little different, but most of these kids who are maybe 25 or 28 years old don't even know what this is about. They know it's an idea, but they don't know that the future of their company could get wiped out in the U.S. if they aren't airtight.
Past President, Intellectual Property Institute of Canada
This is a concern that I have. We hire lots of engineers, and I work with a lot of engineers, and they come to work and have no idea about intellectual property rights.
Waiting until you get to a law school curriculum or waiting until you get trained in the field as an agent is far too late. I believe that students need to have this training as part of their high school curriculum, at least in part. They don't need to know how to deal with the patent system, but they do need to know what the patent can do. It should be absolutely essential for business students and engineers to understand these things when they are coming out of university. I think waiting until they get into a job and having me knock on the door is way too late. I think knowing this would serve not only businesses like mine but also those individuals you're speaking of.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy
Thank you very much.
We're going to move to Mr. Jowhari.
You have five minutes.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, witnesses, for coming in. Let me start with the IP.
You mentioned a point that was very interesting for me. You gave the example of the Canada lands surveyors, who are regulated federally, and then you also suggested that we should probably form a college for IP and have it federally regulated.
Can you explain to me how it will save costs and time, and how it will shorten the processing time that small businesses are dealing with?
Special Advisor, Intellectual Property Institute of Canada
In the current system it's CIPO that regulates agents, manages the exams, and so on. As we mentioned, that's not CIPO's core mandate: CIPO's core mandate is to process those applications from small businesses. They should not be devoting resources to regulating a profession, especially when there's a conflict when they are regulating a profession that's advocating to them on behalf of the clients. There has to be that independence.
Most professions in Canada are self-regulated, so there's no reason government should regulate the patent and trademark profession. If there were an issue, if agents were behaving badly and there were many complaints and so on, then perhaps government would need to step in and do that regulation. That's how it works in Canada. Self-regulation is a privilege that a profession is accorded by government.
That's not the case with patent and trademark agents. It's a profession that's well behaved. There are very few complaints against agents. IPIC has had a code of ethics for the past 90 years. The problem is that it's a voluntary code of ethics. We can't enforce it because we don't have that regulatory process.
If we put that all into a regulatory framework and had self-regulation like other professions, then small businesses will know. They won't be wondering, “Who do I hire to get a patent? These people? How are they governed? Where do I complain?” It'll be the same as it is for engineers, accountants, and so on. They will think, “Okay, I know they have a code, I know this is how they're trained, and I know where I'll go to complain if I'm not happy.”
This is how it'll work. It will encourage people, their professional bodies, and government who should be dealing with them. We'll be focusing on receiving applications.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
You cited engineers. Engineers are regulated by their association, and they're also regulated provincially but not federally. What I'm trying to understand is the advantage of a federal oversight.
Special Advisor, Intellectual Property Institute of Canada
Okay, sorry. We're not suggesting that. It's just a matter of fact, because patent and trademark agents are created by a federal statute. The other day at the annual meeting, we made an analogy by saying, “You can choose your friends, but you don't choose your family.” I'm not an agent, but patent and trademark agents were born in the federal family. The federal family is a great family, but it's slow to let its kids leave the home, contrary to the provincial families. Just in Quebec, there are 54 provincial regulatory bodies with self-regulation.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you. I was just wondering.
You mentioned that in the past you've had a 39% loss of jobs. What was the major reason for those job losses?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Furniture Show, Quebec Furniture Manufacturers' Association
With the perfect storm I mentioned before—the Canadian dollar, the products coming from low-cost production companies, and the slowdown of the economy—we were selling less. What has happened is that products coming from countries that produce at low cost have basically wiped out our ability to compete at the lower product quality end of the market.
In Quebec, what you see today are manufacturers who have niche markets or compete at the middle to higher end. There they can se démarquer. They can compete in a way that people from overseas may not be able to compete in our market. We're doing well. A company like Amisco—
Vice-President, Board of Administration, President and Executive Officer, Amisco, Quebec Furniture Manufacturers' Association
I'll add that mass customization is important in our industry, and the companies you see today can ship fast and with a variety of colour combinations. My company can produce and ship products within 24 hours in different colours. The biggest advantage we have is that we're close to the market. One of the reasons we don't try to go overseas and sell to Europe is that our advantage is the proximity of the clients we have.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
That explains why 94% of your trade is with U.S. That's what I was going to ask about next. What is your growth strategy? If you're high quality and you're a niche player, how would you be able to grow and get out of that 94% dependency on the U.S.?
Vice-President, Board of Administration, President and Executive Officer, Amisco, Quebec Furniture Manufacturers' Association
In my opinion, it's very difficult to go overseas.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Furniture Show, Quebec Furniture Manufacturers' Association
Be better than the others.
Liberal
Conservative
Alex Nuttall Conservative Barrie—Springwater—Oro-Medonte, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
To my two friends from the furniture manufacturing industry, I realize you're from Quebec, so you probably have some insight into what's happening in Quebec versus other parts of the country. Is there a distinct difference in the overall success of the sector in Ontario, let's say, versus Quebec?