Evidence of meeting #55 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was data.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Mr. Fellegi had asked that it be written down that the methodological decisions are to be made by the Chief Statistician.
Prof. Mel Cappe
I think that is clear enough now. However, if it needs to be added, I have no objection.
However, I think the government should have the power to make the really political decisions.
Liberal
Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Mr. Sheikh, you mentioned that you're not sure this legislation would have addressed the issue that forced you to resign. Mr. Fellegi had mentioned the need to put in the wording that methodological decisions should rest strictly with the chief statistician. I believe your words were to the effect that technical statistical decisions should rest with the chief statistician. Is this something you would like to see inserted in the legislation?
Former Chief Statistician of Canada, As an Individual
As Mel said, I find it really difficult to define those terms in legislation.
Liberal
Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Mr. Fellegi, for example, used the words “methodological decisions”.
Former Chief Statistician of Canada, As an Individual
I wouldn't worry about putting in those words. I don't think it's helpful in solving the problem you're talking about. The problem for me is this: I think the bill quite correctly tells the chief statistician, “You will do this. However, the government can send you a directive”. My focus was when the government sends a directive—and it should be able to send a directive—it would be under exceptional circumstances.
Liberal
Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
You had said earlier in your testimony that it would not be appropriate to have decisions on statistical matters come from the minister.
Former Chief Statistician of Canada, As an Individual
It is not appropriate for the government to do that.
Liberal
Former Chief Statistician of Canada, As an Individual
At the same time, I understand the difficulty of having something in law to do this. My indirect way to get to that is to strengthen the clause where the government can send a directive by saying “under exceptional circumstances”. Professor Thomas suggested you table it in Parliament. I think it's their discussion, depending on the nature of the issue, that will bring out whether or not it is a statistical issue. It's really hard to define.
Liberal
Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
If it was a statistical issue, the first thing we should do is make sure that it sits with the chief statistician.
Liberal
Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Some way or another, we need to find this balance, as Mr. Cappe has said, to make sure these statistical decisions are left with the chief statistician.
Former Chief Statistician of Canada, As an Individual
I'm trying to solve this problem indirectly. The biggest issue right now for me in the law is that section 22 lists the things that the chief statistician can make decisions on. Section 21 says that the census questions are done by the cabinet.
Former Chief Statistician of Canada, As an Individual
If you make the simple change that says section 21 is subservient to section 22, to me that would solve a huge problem.
Liberal
Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
We should make subsection 21 subservient to section 22?
Liberal
Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Okay, we'll come back to that.
I'll move on to Professor Thomas. I believe you had specific ideas on how to address this concern about carving out the difference between what would be a political decision and what would be a statistical decision. Maybe you could elaborate on that.
Professor Emeritus, Political Studies, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
Yes, I said that there's no clear dividing line between policy, operations, methodologies, and so on. What you don't want is to give the ministers the best of both worlds, what I would call “discretionary accountability”, where, when it pleases them, they can intervene and get their way through dinnertime directives, as I used to call them when I chaired the boards of crown corporations.
These instructions to the chief statistician at some point should come out in the open, but that's after a long process of back and forth. Then when the minister decides that he wants to overrule the chief statistician, or the government does—I think it should be a cabinet decision—then that becomes public, and the minister can boast and confess why he or she thought this was the right thing to do in the national interest. Presumably, there are skeptical, or if not, hostile, people in the opposition who will ask challenging questions for why this was the case.
I would even go so far as to say that the chief statistician should be allowed the opportunity to state publicly the reasons for his or her objections to a directive that related to operational matters.
Liberal
Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
In your way of handling it, say, compared to Mr. Fellegi's, who wanted something in the bill very clearly delineating...perhaps, as Mr. Sheikh says, making section 21 subservient to 22, you're saying put molasses into the system, so if it's attempted it has to go through this process. We're going to be able to shine a light on it. That might act as a deterrent for the minister trying to get the best of both worlds, where he's changing the statistical methods to get a political gain.
Professor Emeritus, Political Studies, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
Yes. There's no foolproof way of stopping a minister from trying to do something either for political reasons or because they have a different substantive judgment from that of the chief statistician.
Liberal
Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Let's be clear. As you said, if we've hired a chief statistician, we're not looking for a minister to have statistical expertise over and above what a chief statistician and his advisory council have.
Professor Emeritus, Political Studies, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
Absolutely not, but you could say that the chief statistician and the advisory networks they have in place create a narrow perspective on some of these issues. The minister and the government bring a broader perspective: what does this mean nationally or regionally for different segments of Canadian society? They apply a much wider matrix of considerations than does the chief statistician perhaps, and they should have the right to do that at the end of the day. At some point, we have to trust the politicians to do the right thing.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy
Thank you.
I see, Mr. McKinnon, you're eager to jump in. Be very brief, please.