Evidence of meeting #55 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was data.
A recording is available from Parliament.
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
Chandra Arya Liberal Nepean, ON
Once again, you just mentioned that the current members select the other members. How is that?
9:25 a.m.
Chair, National Statistics Council
No, they do not select. They are all appointed by the chief statistician. StatsCan, current members, and other people who have long-standing relationships with Statistics Canada tend to provide a pool that will make suggestions.
For example, we have almost invariably had at least one member of the media, the press, there. There are a handful of people who are well known across the country, who analyze data and are reporters. That gives you your universe when you try to get some of that.
9:25 a.m.
Liberal
Chandra Arya Liberal Nepean, ON
Thank you, Mr. McKinnon.
Mr. Sheikh, what do you think of the process proposed in the bill to appoint the new statistician? What are your views on that?
9:25 a.m.
Former Chief Statistician of Canada, As an Individual
What I see mostly, in the bill, is a fixed five-year term for the chief statistician. There's really not much detail as to how the chief statistician is selected.
The point I was trying to make was that the new bill, by changing the balance of accountability, political interference, professionalism, raises a lot of questions. There are some questions that I think are truly important. Someone, hopefully, will give those questions some thought. I don't have the answers.
One of the questions I raised is, if you trust in the Clerk of the Privy Council as the adviser to the PM for putting the right person in deputy ministers' jobs, and if you do trust that person to make an effort to avoid political interference, given that trust, do you really need a fixed term? When I look at the long history of Statistics Canada, my impression is that the existing system of appointments by the PM, with recommendations from the clerk, has worked really well. In circumstances where you have a mismatch between a job and a person, there's flexibility to change that.
As an example, think about some really bright star in the ranks of the civil service who would become a great chief statistician, compared to the one who is in the job, who is doing a reasonable job, but he's there for five years.
9:30 a.m.
Former Chief Statistician of Canada, As an Individual
Should you give up on that opportunity? The question I'm raising is you—
9:30 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy
Sir, I'm going to have to cut you off because we are way over time.
Mr. Dreeshen, you have seven minutes.
My apologies.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Earl Dreeshen Conservative Red Deer—Mountain View, AB
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Thank you to our guests. Certainly, as a former math teacher, some of my former students have worked with StatsCan, so I'm extremely pleased that you do the great work you do. Again, we've asked many folks who have come here if they have any suggestions. Of course, I believe you've fleshed out a lot of potential things that can be dealt with.
One of the things we looked at was, of course, the appointment of the chief statistician.
Paul, I believe that in your discussions you had talked about the advisory panel, and that three eminent persons should provide the new chief statistician with names and so on. If the Prime Minister found that he didn't accept any of these, he would just have to explain why it is that he would choose somebody else.
Could you flesh that out a little bit? Who exactly were you speaking of in your description?
9:30 a.m.
Professor Emeritus, Political Studies, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
We go back to the fact that Statistics Canada is what's called a statutory agency; it's different from a regular department of government. The head of Statistics Canada is expected to embody both the expertise and the values systems that are needed in a national statistics system. Therefore, I don't think this should be seen as just another routine appointment made by the Prime Minister as part of a roster of deputy ministers. There is a specialized background that needs to be there in the person of the chief statistician, so therefore I'm suggesting that there be a customized appointment process. The new government, the Trudeau government, has an appointment process up online regarding order in council appointments, but it's not very informative in terms of how the process will be handled or the criteria.
In this instance, I think we should have a specialized process of appointment, where three prominent individuals with appropriate background knowledge and expertise would both do the recruitment and the initial nomination of someone to the Prime Minister, who would then put the name forward. Then, as Mel Cappe said, if the political considerations or other considerations make the Prime Minister decide he can accept none of the recommendations from the panel, he or she has the right to do that and they can answer for that. You're locating ultimate responsibility and accountability where it belongs, with the Prime Minister.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Earl Dreeshen Conservative Red Deer—Mountain View, AB
The suggestion has been that some of these three persons who would be on that panel or could be chosen would come from among the Clerk of the Privy Council, chief statistician of Canada, Governor of the Bank of Canada, chairman of the National Statistics Council, president of the Statistical Society of Canada, president of the Canadian Institutes of Health Research, president of the Natural Sciences and Engineering Research Council, or the president of the Social Sciences and Humanities Research Council.
Are there other agencies and councils that you think could be added to that group of eminent persons who would be able to help in the decision-making?
9:30 a.m.
Professor Emeritus, Political Studies, University of Manitoba, As an Individual
That's a pretty good list. I think that's Ivan Fellegi's list. I think that's a pretty good list. I'm not sure, but perhaps a former chief statistician from a provincial level might be an idea for an addition to the list, or someone with quite specialized knowledge. Statistics have become highly technical, and we want the best-quality statistics system we can have. It's not just about people having distinguished careers in other domains. We need to have some expertise on this body, which will do the initial appraisal of nominees or applicants for the position.
9:30 a.m.
Conservative
Earl Dreeshen Conservative Red Deer—Mountain View, AB
Thank you very much.
Mr. Sheikh, if a person were to add this proposal to it—that the Governor in Council should be consulting with leaders of every recognized party in the House of Commons on the appointment of a chief statistician from the list of candidates that has been described—do you feel that it would help in ensuring that the chief statistician has the support of Parliament?
9:35 a.m.
Former Chief Statistician of Canada, As an Individual
I think it would, but let me just mention another dimension that is important to any deputy minister or chief statistician of a department. Running an organization of 5,000 or 6,000 people is not a small task, so in addition to a person having statistical expertise, they should also have the ability to run a very large organization with very complex issues.
9:35 a.m.
Conservative
Earl Dreeshen Conservative Red Deer—Mountain View, AB
There's another point that perhaps, Mr. Sheikh, you could flesh out as well. There are some thoughts on what the definitions would be of the census of population and the census of agriculture. There are amendments that have been floated around that would help prevent the courts from arguing, as they've done, that unless otherwise specified in the act, the census, by common definition, has to be addressed to all households. I believe that was part of the issue, that it had then gone to the courts, and that was the reason why things had progressed in the way they had.
Could you describe any wording that you might have for the census of population or the census of agriculture that would allow for a smooth transition and without the concern about the courts looking at it in a different light?
9:35 a.m.
Former Chief Statistician of Canada, As an Individual
I don't think I'll be able to provide a definition right now. I haven't given it much thought.
I think the system we have has worked really well. You have a past census that you can search very widely. You can make changes to what the census should look like, and then the cabinet approves it. I think that system really has worked.
To my mind, that really isn't the issue, how you define a census. The issue for me is that in the Statistics Act right now, if you look at sections 21 and 22, there's a conflict. You need to avoid that conflict. Section 22 has a list of things that, under Bill C-36, the chief statistician would be able to make most, if not all, of the decisions on. Section 21 says quite explicitly that, by the way, the census questions are the responsibility of the government.
To me, which one of those would override the other in Bill C-36 is a big, big issue, and the bill is totally silent on that.
9:35 a.m.
Liberal
9:35 a.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Thank you to our witnesses for being here today.
One of the more interesting aspects raised about the current situation we're in right now is trust. Trust is necessary, not only for those who want to compile the information in accordance with the questions we ask but also among the users. It should be noted that many of the users pay for this information. It's not just an expense with regard to the census. For those who are not familiar with that, it's a product that actually brings in substantial revenue. It's unique to government to be able to quantify, and hence the censuses going back in time to the Roman Empire.
Our current system right now is looking for restoration of that trust. Will that be achieved as the bill is right now, without amendments? That's what I'm wondering, and I'd like everyone's opinion here. If this bill is not amended, then in its current form will it fully restore the trust necessary to provide the best data collection opportunity that we have in the clearest sense of understanding amongst those who are collecting information and those who are using the information for products and services that really, at the end of the day, have consequential expenditures in our civil society, both private and public sector?
Mr. McKinnon, maybe you can start with that.
9:35 a.m.
Chair, National Statistics Council
There are at least two aspects to it. A change in legislation cannot, by itself alone, restore confidence that has been damaged or solve that problem. On the other hand, having appropriate legislation in place and ensuring that it creates greater transparency, that people are more aware of things, of what has happened, and that there is a structure that ensures confidentiality, competence, professional integrity, and so on, are part of the building blocks.
For many Canadians, the trust is something that is built over time; it can be damaged quickly. If there is a silver lining in the cloud of the 2011 arguments over the census and the NHS, it is that the end-users, the people who build transit systems, locate schools, and help people figure out where new markets are so they can put up shops, all spoke out about its importance. Part of the product of that is the rapid, and actually better, response rates in 2016 than to earlier ones.
I'm backing away from saying that this solves the problem. Rather, this is one brick on a path that requires action and broader understanding.
9:40 a.m.
Former Chief Statistician of Canada, As an Individual
Before the 2010 census problem, as chief statistician, whenever I met with chief statisticians of the world, what I kept hearing was that Statistics Canada was the best statistical agency in the world. That reputation, of course, suffered as a result of what happened in 2010.
Therefore, the question I give to you, sir, is if Bill C-36 had been the law at that time, would that situation have been avoided? My answer is no, but you might come to a different answer. I think the answer is no because of this problem that I mentioned between sections 21 and 22 of the Statistics Act.
9:40 a.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
So you believe that the bill does need amendment. I think everybody has come here with amendment suggestions.
9:40 a.m.
Former Chief Statistician of Canada, As an Individual
The bill does need some pretty important amendments. It's not because somebody disagrees with those amendments, but my view is that probably someone hasn't thought about the challenges—
9:40 a.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
Of course. It's the same with me. My motivation is about how to improve the product at the end of the day, and we won't get many chances to improve this product. It will be several years, if not a decade, before this comes around again.
Mr. Cappe.
9:40 a.m.
Prof. Mel Cappe
I think you're asking the right question. The question is, though, what's the role of the statute in this? You can't fix this with the statute. It's a crucial instrument, and this bill is an improvement.
Can the bill be improved? Probably, but I don't think I've heard any improvements, so far, around the table. As Mr. Thomas suggested in terms of having a different appointment process, I think that can be done, but it doesn't have to be done in the statute. I don't think the law has to oblige the consultation the government does on the appointment of a new chief statistician.
On the competence of the chief statistician, with all due respect to Munir—we were in graduate school together—Mr. Sheikh was an unlikely appointment as chief statistician but did a great job.
9:40 a.m.
NDP
Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON
I was looking more for your opinion on the bill and whether in its current context the trust was there.
9:40 a.m.
Prof. Mel Cappe
I know.