Evidence of meeting #72 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 42nd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was casl.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
11:50 a.m.
Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Strategy and Innovation Policy Sector, Department of Industry
I think it's clarification around compliance. You'll hear from a number of witnesses over the course of this study about what that could or should look like. I think you'll hear from some who say, “It's pretty clear,” and you'll hear from others who say, “No, we really need to have a much more refined understanding and prescriptive understanding of what consent would look like.” I think that's a key element of the degree to which this is a successful piece of legislation. Insofar as people understand their obligations, they can then live up to them and consumers can then hold them to account.
11:50 a.m.
Liberal
Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
With that statement, then, you're saying that a lot of it's not malicious. A lot of it is just that we still don't have enough education out there.
11:50 a.m.
Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Strategy and Innovation Policy Sector, Department of Industry
I think it's twofold, On the one hand, on the malware, ransomware, other sorts of factors, that's by its very nature malicious. It's intended to do bad things to your computer system and to do bad things to users. That's an international problem. I think we really are working in collaboration with other enforcement agencies to take down botnets and take down malware and ensure that we can take appropriate action.
The domestic side, though, is a lot about understanding what the law requires, and I think consumers in Canada get frustrated by both. One, they're a great risk, and the other, they're quite frustrated.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Mr. Harroun, I know you mentioned that it's complex, that we have yet to fully apply the legislation. Are you needing more resources to get that education out? What do you need to further move the ball down?
11:55 a.m.
Chief Compliance and Enforcement Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
I'll touch on a couple of things that were in your previous question as well.
The most shocking thing I'll say at this committee is that CASL was never going to eliminate all spam. We might as well all understand that now.
Going back to your domestic and international perspective, most companies and individuals in Canada want to live up to their expectations with the government and the regulator. What CASL does is it puts everyone on the same level playing field. Everyone who wants to abide by the rules will follow the rules and they will not be spamming anyone anymore.
Going back to the sophistication side of the house, what happens there is that everyone who wants to abide by the rules abides by the rules; the more nefarious activities rise to the top. Cream rises to the top, and when everyone is following the rules, these guys rise to the top.
Going back to nefarious activities, our complaints are changing. We talk about 1.1 million complaints—
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
11:55 a.m.
Chief Compliance and Enforcement Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
Exactly, so the 1.1 million complaints are no longer.... Of course in 2014, day two, it was about a well-known Canadian national company that didn't have the right to email me. That is not happening today, which I think is the most important part to my colleague's statistics about the reduction of spam. The companies in Canada are complying, which I'd like to think is partly due to our education on compliance.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
Frank Baylis Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC
Do you have any percentages of how many were non-malicious to malicious? Is that changing? Do you have any numbers on that?
11:55 a.m.
Chief Compliance and Enforcement Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
I don't have any numbers but I was just talking to my folks yesterday on what we are seeing. The sophistication is changing. It's no longer just about an “unsubscribe”, or it's no longer about their not having an existing business relationship with me. This is a very different activity. They want me to open up this particular attachment. They want me to do these particular things.
I don't have stats just because it's not really how we organize the spam reporting centre. It's a work in progress as well.
I'll go back to it being only three years since we've been in force. There are certain pieces of the legislation we haven't even applied yet because we haven't got to that more nefarious activity, because we've been busy getting everyone....
11:55 a.m.
Chief Compliance and Enforcement Officer, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
Yes, exactly. It was not so much the low-hanging fruit; it was ensuring that everyone is complying.
11:55 a.m.
Liberal
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Maxime Bernier Conservative Beauce, QC
Thank you very much.
My question is for officials from the CRTC or the Department of Industry. It pertains to compliance with the law.
Have you conducted a study or a cost analysis of compliance with the law for the private sector? How much might it cost a company to comply with this law? Does anyone know how much it costs?
11:55 a.m.
Director, Privacy and Data Protection Policy Directorate, Digital Transformation Service Sector, Department of Industry
We have done some studies but we do not have exact figures. The amount depends on the organization and the computerized systems they had to implement to make compliance automatic.
We have received feedback from certain organizations which indicated that the initial costs of compliance with the law were quite high. We do not have any specific figures, however, since the cost varies from organization to organization and depending on how they communicate with their clients.
We have noticed that this created a need in industry. For example, certain companies offer automated compliance services. In this regard, there has been some innovation in order to facilitate compliance.
We do not have exact figures at this time but we could follow up on this.
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Maxime Bernier Conservative Beauce, QC
Do you know if the technology has evolved and if there is a program that consumers can use to block spam? Do you think the reduction of spam in Canada could be attributed to a new technology that consumers can use for that purpose? Does that have an impact on the reduction of spam in Canada?
Noon
Director General, Marketplace Framework Policy Branch, Strategy and Innovation Policy Sector, Department of Industry
I think that can be explained by two factors. First of all, spam has been reduced by the new technologies that consumers can use. Moreover, there has been a reduction in the number of emails from companies that have not obtained consumers' consent. I think both of these factors are at play.
Noon
Conservative
Maxime Bernier Conservative Beauce, QC
Thank you.
Mr. Chair, just over 48 hours ago, I tabled a motion that I would like the committee to consider at 12:30. It pertains to government consultations. You have received the motion. It pertains to the document entitled “Tax Planning Using Private Corporations”, which is the proposal published by the Minister of Finance on July 18, 2017. The motion requests that “the committee hear from witnesses on this topic for 5 meetings”, that public hearings be held on the impact of these changes on small and medium-sized businesses in Canada, “that the findings be reported to the House”, and that “the government provide a response to the recommendations made by the committee”.
I would like the committee to consider this immediately and for us to discuss it.
Noon
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy
If I understand correctly, you'd like to debate that when we go in camera at 12:30.
Noon
Conservative
Maxime Bernier Conservative Beauce, QC
I'd like to know if my colleagues are in agreement with debating that. Yes, it is important to have this debate as soon as possible.
Noon
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy
We have half an hour left for our witnesses. We have to establish the parameters of this study, so I would like to do that as well in this time frame, at 12:30. If the committee agrees, we can have that discussion at 12:30 when we go in camera.
Mr. Jeneroux.
Noon
Conservative
Noon
Conservative
Noon
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Dan Ruimy
The motion is valid, so the choice is yours at this point. You may wish to debate that now, or you may wish to debate that at a future time. Again, we are scheduled at 12:30 to go in camera to discuss the parameters of this study. It's up to you, but the motion is valid.
