Evidence of meeting #19 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was data.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Francis Lord  Committee Researcher
Daniel Therrien  Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Gregory Smolynec  Deputy Commissioner, Policy and Promotion Sector, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada
Teresa Scassa  Canada Research Chair in Information Law and Policy, Faculty of Law, Common Law Section, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Michael Bryant  Executive Director and General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association

2 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado

Good afternoon everyone. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 19 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Industry, Science and Technology.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Saturday, April 11, the committee is meeting for the purpose of receiving evidence concerning matters related to the government's response to the COVID-19 pandemic.

Today's meeting is taking place by video conference, and the proceedings will be made available via the House of Commons website.

I'd like to remind members and witnesses to please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. When you're ready to speak, please unmute your microphone and then return it to mute when you have finished speaking. When speaking, please speak slowly and clearly so that the translators can do their work.

As is my normal practice, I will hold up a yellow card when you have 30 seconds left in your intervention, and I will hold up a red card when your time for questions has expired.

Today we have two separate panels. For the first panel we have with us today, from the Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Mr. Daniel Therrien, Privacy Commissioner; Mr. Gregory Smolynec, deputy commissioner; and Martyn Turcotte, director, technology analysis directorate.

Before we start with the witnesses, I believe Mr. Masse would like to speak.

Go ahead, Mr. Masse.

2 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have a quick point of order related to committee business.

I'd like to move the following motion to continue our work with fraud protection in Canada. The motion reads:

That all evidence and documentation received in relation to the subject matter of Fraud Calls during the committee's study of the Canadian Response to the COVID-19 Pandemic, be also deemed received by the committee in the context of its study on Fraud Calls in Canada.

This would allow us to fold in the work that we had on fraud into our previous meetings, which is relevant. I know there have been discussions with the parties to hopefully proceed in this fashion.

I move the motion and would ask for consent for that to pass, please.

2 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado

We have the motion on the floor.

2 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Madam Chair, on this point of order, because I'm a stickler for procedure, while I support Mr. Masse's motion, it is being moved on a point of order, and you would require unanimous consent for this to be moved.

I'm looking at the clerk in the gallery view. I want him to rule on that so that we can make sure we're setting precedent appropriately in this format. I have no problem with the motion, and I would support unanimous consent for it to be moved on a point of order, but I just want to do things by the book.

2:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado

Ms. Rempel Garner, I was just about to let him know that you cannot put a motion forward on a point of order, so you jumped ahead of me. Thank you, we're on the same page on that one.

With that, I will rule that I understand he was just going to table the motion and adding on that point of order was just an addition. I will rule it acceptable.

With that, I'll open the floor to debate if there is any.

2:05 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

I'm looking at the clerk. On a point of order with regard to procedure, perhaps Mr. Masse should just seek unanimous consent for this to be moved on the point of order, and then we have everything good to go.

2:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado

I've verified with the clerk and it's actually the chair who rules, not the clerk, and he should have not included the words “point of order”.

With that, we have the motion on the floor. I want to double-check if there is any debate. Otherwise, we'll go to a recorded division.

I see an analyst waving at me.

2:05 p.m.

Francis Lord Committee Researcher

I would request some clarification from Mr. Masse.

You talked about evidence regarding fraud calls that was received on May 20. There was much evidence on May 20 that was not related to fraud calls per se, but to fraud related to COVID-19, some of which was delivered through calls, many through texts or the web.

Is it specifically just fraud calls or all fraud related to COVID-19?

2:05 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

It's COVID-related fraud. I don't believe I actually said a date. If I did, I apologize.

It's related to the evidence and testimony. I can leave that to you to determine. It's the evidence from the special hearings folded into the previous work that we did.

2:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado

Thank you, Mr. Masse, for the clarification.

Seeing as there is no more debate, we will go to a recorded vote.

(Motion agreed to: yeas 11; nays 0)

Thank you very much, Mr. Masse.

We will now go to our witness testimony.

Mr. Therrien, you have seven minutes to present.

2:05 p.m.

Daniel Therrien Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Thank you, Madam Chair and committee members for your invitation to discuss tracing applications, one of the approaches being studied in Canada and elsewhere to ensure a safe return to a more normal life. Please note that the expression “tracing application” is used in public speech to describe various mobile applications that serve as public health tools. Some applications are designed for conducting true contact tracing, while others have the goal of informing users and giving them advice based on their level of risk. The goal of an application is important for privacy purposes.

During this public health crisis related to COVID-19, the health and safety of Canadians is a key concern. It's natural for governments and public health authorities to try to find ways, including technological means, to better understand and control the spread of the virus. In this context, the Office of the Commissioner has adopted a flexible and contextual approach in its enforcement of privacy laws. We strongly believe that it's possible to use technology to protect both public health and privacy. Technology in itself is neither good nor bad. Everything depends on how it's designed, used and regulated.

When properly designed, tracing applications could achieve both objectives simultaneously, in terms of public health and the protection of rights. However, if implemented inappropriately, they could lead to surveillance by governments or businesses that exceeds public health needs and is therefore a violation of our fundamental rights.

I will now try to switch to English. I do not have the language button on my screen. I have a microphone and a camera, but no indication of language.

Does it work, even though I'm speaking English now?

2:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado

I believe it might be on the top right, Monsieur Therrien. There should be three dots.

Can we get verification that the interpretation is working?

Mr. Therrien, can you try to speak a few more words in English?

2:10 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Daniel Therrien

Yes. I'm about to speak about the importance of the design.

2:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado

Unfortunately, the translation is not working. If you could hold on one moment, I'll stop the clock.

Mr. Therrien, we're just checking with IT. Because you're not switched over to English, when you do speak English, the translation does not come through. We cannot proceed until we verify that.

I'm going to suspend for one moment so that we can get IT to work with you.

2:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado

Mr. Therrien, you may continue your presentation, please.

2:20 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Daniel Therrien

Madam Chair, I don't have the French version of the rest of the presentation. I suggest that my colleague, Mr. Smolynec, read the end of the presentation in English. I'll then answer questions in French, regardless of the language in which the questions are asked.

2:20 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado

That's fine. Thank you.

2:20 p.m.

Dr. Gregory Smolynec Deputy Commissioner, Policy and Promotion Sector, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Good afternoon.

Following from the commissioner's opening remarks, appropriate designs of technologies, such as tracing applications, depend on respect for some key privacy principles recommended in the OPC’s “Framework for the Government of Canada to Assess Privacy-Impactful Initiatives in Response to COVID-19”, and in a joint statement by federal, provincial and territorial privacy commissioners on contact-tracing applications.

In the interest of time, we will focus on six of these principles.

First is purpose limitation. Personal information collected through tracing applications should be used to protect defined public health purposes, and for no other purpose.

Second, these applications should be justified as necessary and proportionate, and therefore be science-based, necessary for a specific purpose, tailored to that purpose and likely to be effective.

Third, there must be a clear legal basis for the use of these applications and use should be voluntary, as this is important to ensure citizens’ trust. Use should therefore be consent-based and consent must be meaningful.

Fourth, these exceptional measures should be time-limited. Any personal information collected during this period should be destroyed when the crisis ends, and the applications decommissioned.

Fifth is transparency. Governments should be clear about the basis and the terms applicable to these applications. Privacy impact assessments or meaningful privacy analysis should be completed, reviewed by privacy commissioners, and a plain-language summary published proactively.

Sixth is accountability. Governments and companies should be accountable for how personal information will be collected, used, disclosed and secured. Oversight by an independent third party, such as privacy commissioners, would enhance citizens’ trust.

While governments have stressed the importance of privacy in the design of tracing applications, several of the principles I have mentioned are not currently legal requirements in our two federal privacy laws. For instance, nothing currently prevents a company from proposing an app that is not evidence-based and using the information for commercial purposes unrelated to health protection, provided consent is obtained, often in incomprehensible terms. A government could partner with such a company.

The current health crisis has made clear that technologies can play a very useful role in making essential activities safe. This meeting is about contact tracing, but potential benefits are much wider. For instance, let us think about virtual medicine or e-education.

What we need, more urgently than ever, are laws that allow technologies to produce benefits in the public interest without creating risks that fundamental rights such as privacy will be violated. Because of the growing role of public-private partnerships in addressing situations such as the COVID crisis, we need common principles enshrined in public sector and private sector laws.

Thank you. That concludes our statement.

2:25 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado

Thank you very much. With that, we will move to our rounds of questions.

Our first round of questions for six minutes goes to MP Rempel Garner.

2:25 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Thank you very much to our witnesses, and thank you for your work in protecting Canadians during this time of crisis. I appreciate the framework you've put out proactively, with regard to privacy-related contact tracing.

Monsieur Therrien, are you absolutely confident that Canada's current privacy laws would protect Canadians if a privacy breach occurred in a contact-tracing app?

2:25 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Daniel Therrien

No, I am not.

My office has been talking for several years now about the fact that our legal framework needs to be modernized and strengthened, and the current crisis clearly shows there will be a need to accelerate the technological revolution that was already at play before COVID.

2:25 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Thank you.

2:25 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Daniel Therrien

This acceleration requires an even stronger legal framework.

2:25 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Has any federal government department actively engaged your office to work directly with regard to rectifying these laws ahead of a contact-tracing app being “strongly” recommended, as the Prime Minister said in a press conference last week?

2:25 p.m.

Privacy Commissioner of Canada, Office of the Privacy Commissioner of Canada

Daniel Therrien

Perhaps I should respond in French, given the interpretation issue that we've encountered.