Evidence of meeting #19 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was data.
A recording is available from Parliament.
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
Thank you, Madam Chair.
My first question is going to be for Mr. Bryant. I'm just looking for a simple yes or no.
Is data ownership considered private property?
3:55 p.m.
Executive Director and General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
Is my data my property? I would say yes, that's my property, but I have a qualification. I know you wanted a yes or no, but you get to ask the questions and I get to give the answer.
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
That's fine. If you want to give that qualification, just do it quickly, if you wouldn't mind.
3:55 p.m.
Executive Director and General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
I'd just repeat what the professor said about other actors, including having an interest in it, and choices need to be made about who gets that interest.
Police would probably like my private data, because police like that kind of information; it assists their investigations. However, you would want to forbid data leakage outside of the public health context.
3:55 p.m.
Conservative
Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
Right. The reason I asked is because I'm just concerned that, in the Constitution, private property isn't really a constitutionally protected element.
Anyway, I'm going to move on to my next points here.
There were already concerns about the freedom of the press in the last couple of years, prior to the pandemic. Unfortunately, with Parliament suspended and its powers limited, there is much more of a need for the media to openly follow and question the government's decisions and activities.
Are there any barriers or concerning trends for Canadian media to access or challenge the government, especially since lockdowns began?
4 p.m.
Executive Director and General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
There's no question that there's an absence of accountability.
For example, I'm concerned that when there are announcements made by government ministers—we'll just talk about the federal government—when announcements or daily updates are provided, how much of that has legal authority, versus how much of it is just the person's opinion?
What would be helpful in these daily updates is, “The cabinet has passed the following orders in council. Here is what they are. Here is where you go find them on a website. Now let me tell you my personal opinion about things that have no legal authority.”
Because we don't know what is law and what is not, the rule of law is thrown into question, accountability is certainly thrown into question, and democracy is not aided by all that. That would be what comes most urgently to mind that threatens accountability of the executive to the legislature. The extent to which the legislative members feel shut out by that is something that I guess is for the members to decide how to remedy.
4 p.m.
Conservative
Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
Yes. Well, thank you for that.
In recent months, we have seen the federal government play with the idea of shutting down what they consider fake news being spread online regarding COVID-19. However, a few months ago, it seems the government spread some fake news itself regarding masks, human transmission of the virus and the origins of the virus. It was all inaccurate.
How damaging would these measures be to Canadians' freedom of speech, but also for the freedom of the press?
4 p.m.
Executive Director and General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
We would argue against any measure by any government or any legislature seeking to in any way chill, let alone censor, people in terms of their freedom of expression.
4 p.m.
Conservative
Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
What are the unintended negative consequences that such measures could create?
4 p.m.
Executive Director and General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
Well, who has a monopoly over the truth? Are we willing to say that the government or a legislature has a monopoly over the truth? No, of course not.
If we can agree that governments don't get to decide what's true or not true, then they can't get the power to decide what information ought to be circulated to others.
4 p.m.
Conservative
Jeremy Patzer Conservative Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK
This next question I would like you, Mr. Bryant, to answer first, then Professor Scassa, perhaps you wouldn't mind answering as well.
Last week we heard a witness from a private company describe their work with provincial health databases as creating, and I quote, “a single source of truth”.
Do you have any concerns about how governments and companies are planning to collect and manage data?
4 p.m.
Executive Director and General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
Yes.
I think I'm going to let Professor Scassa go first since I took all the last few questions.
4 p.m.
Canada Research Chair in Information Law and Policy, Faculty of Law, Common Law Section, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
Yes, I always have concerns about how data collection and use is going to take place, especially as we move into a time of big data analytics and artificial intelligence, because the uses can go beyond what we've even imagined before. I do think we need to have strong privacy legislation in place and strong accountability and oversight.
4 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado
Our next round of questions goes MP Ehsassi. You have the floor for five minutes.
4 p.m.
Liberal
Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair. Thank you to the witnesses for appearing before our committee today.
As you both may have heard, we've just heard that the only province that has actually launched a tracing app, Alberta, is still waiting to hear from its privacy commissioner as to whether that app actually lives up to the standards that were set out in the joint statement released on May 7. I just took a look at the website of the Alberta privacy commissioner and it says that privacy impact assessments can take up to a year.
I'm astounded because if we take the joint statement that was released by the provincial and federal privacy commissioners, did they mean to just provide us with some yardsticks, recognizing full well that it would take many months before a government could go there and ensure that all those safeguards are there?
What is the process that you would recommend a government adhere to?
Perhaps I could start off with Professor Scassa.
4:05 p.m.
Canada Research Chair in Information Law and Policy, Faculty of Law, Common Law Section, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
My understanding is that there was already a privacy impact assessment that was carried out on the Alberta app. That's what the privacy commissioner of Alberta is reviewing. She is, I think, having discussions with the Alberta government. I think that's why we haven't yet had a verdict. She has some concerns that she wants to raise based on the PIA.
The Australian app that was released at the same time as their privacy impact assessment is quite a long, comprehensive document that they posted on their website as well.
It is possible to have a privacy impact assessment done quickly. The Australian PIA, for example, flagged some serious issues which the legislature in the Parliament in Australia is now considering and taking into account and looking at legislation.
Where there is a need and a sense of urgency, things can move more quickly. I know that the privacy commissioner talked about talking with Mila about their app and providing advice and consultations with Mila. There are ways for things to happen quickly. Not everything is going to be on slow time.
I have confidence that this work can be done and can be done quickly to improve privacy with these types of apps, even in a crisis.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
4:05 p.m.
Executive Director and General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
Yes.
I think there's a difference between a final assessment on the one hand and getting some feedback from a privacy commissioner on the other hand. I know the federal Privacy Commissioner would welcome an opportunity to appear before this committee or appear before anybody who asked them to, to come in and provide a preliminary set of opinions. Where a privacy commissioner says, “Look, I just need some more information”, they can provide that information. But more often than not they are able to say, “Look, if this, then that”, and so on.
I think that answer was, in part, typical of that privacy commissioner. Secondly, it was also driven by the fact that if you're seeking a final answer, they're not going to have one for a while. That doesn't mean we can't get preliminary answers.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON
Thank you for that.
Now perhaps I could return to Professor Scassa.
In your opening remarks you flagged the issue of workplace privacy. That is actually one of those issues that we very seldom hear about in the papers. Could you elaborate on that? What are the things we should be very much concerned about?
4:05 p.m.
Canada Research Chair in Information Law and Policy, Faculty of Law, Common Law Section, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
My understanding is that there are discussions taking place in Canada and in other countries, especially where there is a large workforce, about how people will be able to return to the workplace and be safe.
In that context, they are designing, developing and looking to implement contact-tracing apps within the workplace. They will basically monitor where people are within the workplace, who they interact with, where they move about and what their patterns of movement are within the workplace, so that if there is an outbreak of COVID-19 or if an employee is diagnosed with COVID-19, other employees can be notified and appropriate measures can be taken.
On the one hand, you can understand how important that is for getting people back to work and keeping them safe, but at the same time, that's a very significant level of surveillance. I think it raises privacy issues that we need to be thinking very seriously about when we put protections and balancing factors in place.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON
Mr. Bryant, did you want to respond? Actually, I'm out of time.
Thank you.
4:05 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado
Sorry, MP Ehsassi.
Our next round of questions goes to MP Rempel Garner.
You have the floor for five minutes.
4:05 p.m.
Conservative
Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB
Thank you, Madame Chair.
My first question is for Mr. Bryant.
You raised the GDPR and the CCPA earlier, which I think are two very important pieces of global best practice with regard to data. Article 20 of the GDPR speaks to the right of data portability, and the CCPA allows people to request that their data be deleted or to opt out of the selling of their data.
With that being best practice, would it be beneficial to Canadians to have that type of a data ownership regime, for lack of a better term, ported into law in Canada?
4:10 p.m.
Executive Director and General Counsel, Canadian Civil Liberties Association
Yes, I do.