The thing that they will always bring up is who their competition is and what their competition pays.
Our argument back is that we believe the system is actually flawed. The logistical system of retailing groceries is flawed when we are more concerned about driving lower costs, which impact the Teamsters with the trucking, and which impact Unifor, Teamsters and UFCW with warehousing, because we end up with warehouses that are fully automated. The system itself has very thin margins, but I believe that the very thin margins are because the design of the system itself is to make sure that we keep thin margins.
That's where I think the government has to play a huge role in a living wage, so that if the real argument is competition, then take the non-union competition and force them into the same situation when it comes to wages and benefits. Union members will receive more benefits overall. They'll receive a pension overall, but those are all parts of it. The thin margins that the retailers always talk about, I think, are a flaw in the system because that's what we're driving things to rather than looking at increasing and improving the lot of life for workers.