Evidence of meeting #3 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 43rd Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cusma.

A video is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Lawrence Herman  Counsel, Herman and Associates, As an Individual
Matthew Poirier  Director of Policy, Canadian Manufacturers & Exporters
David Cassidy  President, Unifor Local 444
Jonathon Azzopardi  Director, International Affairs, Laval Tool & Mold Ltd., and past Chairman, Canadian Association of Mold Makers
Roger Boivin  President, Groupe Performance Stratégique
Scott D. Smith  Manager, Honey Bee Manufacturing Ltd.
Mark Nantais  President, Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers' Association
Jennifer Mitchell  President, Red Brick Songs, Casablanca Media Publishing
Casey Chisick  Legal Counsel, CMRRA-SODRAC Inc. (CSI)
Steve Verheul  Chief Negotiator and Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Nolan Wiebe  Senior Trade Policy Officer, Information Technologies, Global Affairs Canada
Robert Brookfield  Director General, Trade Law (Deputy Legal Adviser), Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Aaron Fowler  Chief Agriculture Negotiator and Director General, Trade Agreements and Negotiations, Department of Agriculture and Agri-Food
Loris Mirella  Director, Intellectual Property Trade Policy, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
Luc Boivin  Owner, Fromagerie Boivin
Bruno Letendre  Chair, Les Producteurs de lait du Québec
Michael Geist  Canada Research Chair in Internet and E-Commerce Law, Faculty of Law, University of Ottawa, As an Individual
François Dumontier  Director, Communications, Public Affairs and Trade Union Life, Les Producteurs de lait du Québec

9:55 a.m.

President, Red Brick Songs, Casablanca Media Publishing

Jennifer Mitchell

I am glad you brought this up. It was in my speech, but I just didn't get around to it.

I know there was a lot of discussion about that, but I strongly disagree with a mandatory registration regime. For one thing, our copyright registration regime was designed to deal with an existing system, which is voluntary registration. It's really not equipped to handle the administration of a mandatory registration regime.

Putting that aside, registration just isn't necessary. Right now publishers and songwriters register their songs with SOCAN and CMRRA, which cover 99.9% of the market, and that system works very well. Commercial users who license songs know how to find copyright owners within the existing system, so they properly clear the use of music.

Introducing a second registration system that is operated by the government is going to require a significant amount of time, resources and money, and I'm not sure—

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado

Ms. Mitchell, unfortunately, that's the time we have for this round. I'm sorry.

We'll now move to Mr. Ehsassi.

9:55 a.m.

Liberal

Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I know I have only two minutes left, and so I'd like to go to Mr. Nantais.

You have spoken at length about how integrated the auto sector is. As you know, one of the new features of this NAFTA is chapter 26, which has to do with North American competitiveness. It talks at length about regional economic growth.

Is chapter 26 something that would be of great utility to the auto sector, or would it have no application to the future prosperity of the sector?

9:55 a.m.

President, Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers' Association

Mark Nantais

I wouldn't say that it has no application, but the fact of the matter is that we've been deeply integrated since the Auto Pact. We can't go back. We're moving forward on that basis.

When you look at the multinationals at the table in North America, they also have plants around the world and so forth, but it's really important that we remain competitive here to support our supply base. That's what's really important for the future—the certainty around that. As I said earlier, it may not offer guarantees for suppliers. If you lose an assembly plant, for instance, generally parts manufacturers gravitate to that assembly plant, and if it's not here, then they'll go elsewhere.

10 a.m.

Liberal

Ali Ehsassi Liberal Willowdale, ON

Thank you very much.

10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado

That's all the time we have for this panel.

Thank you very much for being here today and sharing your views.

With that, we will suspend so that we can bring in the next round of witnesses.

Thank you very much.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado

We will begin the third panel.

Today we are hearing witnesses on the subject matter study of clauses 22 to 38 and clauses 108 to 122 of Bill C-4.

I will remind folks in the room that no photo taking or video conferencing is allowed. In addition, during testimony, when you see the little yellow card, that means you have 30 seconds to wrap it up. I'll try to give you a little wave to give you the heads-up.

Today we have various folks from the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development. We have Mr. Steve Verheul, our chief negotiator; Robert Brookfield, director general; Loris Mirella, director, intellectual property; Shendra Melia, executive director; and Nicola Waterfield, deputy director.

Welcome to everyone. We will have a 10-minute presentation from the panel, after which we will move to questions from the committee members.

With that, I open the floor for your presentation.

Thank you.

10:05 a.m.

Steve Verheul Chief Negotiator and Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Thank you and good morning, Madam Chair and members of the committee.

Thank you for the invitation to appear before the committee today. We look forward to answering questions regarding the outcome of the new NAFTA agreement, following my opening remarks.

The signature of the new NAFTA on November 30, 2018, followed 13 months of intensive negotiations. It brought together a broad range of officials and stakeholders, with a strong partnership between federal and provincial officials. That agreement achieved several key outcomes. It served to reinforce the integrity of the North American market, preserve Canada's market access into the U.S. and Mexico and modernize the agreement's provisions to reflect our modern economy and the evolution of the North American partnership.

On December 10, 2019, following several months of intensive engagement with our U.S. and Mexican counterparts, the three countries signed a protocol of amendment to modify certain outcomes in the original agreement related to state-to-state dispute settlement, labour, environment, intellectual property, and automotive rules of origin. These modifications were largely as a result of domestic discussions in the U.S. However, Canada was closely involved and engaged in substantive negotiations to ensure that any modifications aligned with Canadian interests.

Throughout the negotiations Canadian businesses, business associations, labour unions, civil society and indigenous groups were also closely engaged and contributed significantly to the final result.

For the negotiations, we need to recall that the NAFTA discussions were unique. This was the first large-scale renegotiation of any of Canada's free trade agreements. Normally, free trade agreement partners are looking to liberalize trade. In this process the U.S. goal from the start of the negotiations was to rebalance the agreement in its favour. The President had also repeatedly threatened to withdraw from NAFTA if a satisfactory outcome could not be reached.

The opening U.S. negotiating positions were, to put it mildly, unconventional. These included a 50% U.S. domestic content requirement on autos, which would have decimated our auto sector; the complete dismantlement of Canada's supply management system; the elimination of the binational panel dispute settlement mechanism for anti-dumping and countervailing duties, which we've used extensively, particularly for products like softwood lumber; a state-to-state dispute settlement mechanism that would have rendered the agreement completely unenforceable; removal of the cultural exception; a government procurement chapter that would have taken away NAFTA market access, leaving Canada in a worse position than all the other U.S. free trade agreement partners; and a five-year automatic termination of the agreement, known as the sunset clause.

The U.S. administration also took the unprecedented step of imposing tariffs on imports of Canadian steel and aluminum, on the basis of purported threats to national security, for which there was absolutely no evidence of any kind of justification. The U.S. administration had also launched an investigation that could lead to the same result for Canadian autos and auto parts.

In the face of this situation, Canada undertook broad and extensive engagement with Canadians on objectives for the NAFTA modernization process. Based on the views we heard and our internal trade policy experience, Canada set out a number of key objectives, which can broadly be categorized into the following overarching areas. First, we wanted to preserve important NAFTA provisions and market access into the U.S. and Mexico. Second, we wanted to modernize and improve the agreement where possible. Third, we wanted to reinforce the security and stability of market access into the U.S. and Mexico for Canadian businesses.

With respect to preserving NAFTA, Canada maintained the NAFTA tariff outcomes, including duty-free treatment for energy products. We preserved the provisions on chapter 19, which is the panel dispute settlement mechanism for anti-dumping and countervailing duty matters. We preserved temporary entry for business persons and the cultural exception. We preserved and improved the state-to-state dispute settlement mechanism.

In the area of autos, changes were made to the rules of origin regime to encourage the use of more inputs from Canada, in particular by increasing the regional value content requirements for autos and auto parts, and removing incentives to produce in low-cost jurisdictions. Together with the quota exemption from potential U.S. section 232 tariffs on autos and auto parts, secured as part of the final outcome, these new automotive rules of origin will incentivize production and sourcing in North America, and represent important outcomes for both our steel and aluminum sectors.

With respect to modernizing NAFTA, we have modernized disciplines for trade in goods and agriculture, including with respect to customs administration and procedures; technical barriers to trade; sanitary and phytosanitary measures, as well as a new chapter on good regulatory practices, including for health and safety. That encourages co-operation and protects the government's right to regulate in the public interest.

Commitments on trade facilitation and customs procedures have been modernized for the 21st century to better facilitate cross-border trade, including through the use of electronic processes, which will reduce red tape for exporters and save them money.

New and modernized disciplines on technical barriers to trade in key sectors are designed to minimize obstacles for Canadians doing business in the U.S. and Mexico, while preserving Canada's ability to regulate in the public interest. We also have modernized obligations for cross-border trade and services and investment, including financial services and telecommunications, and a new digital trade chapter.

On labour and environment, we negotiated chapters that are fully incorporated into the agreement and subject to dispute settlement. These obligations will help ensure that parties maintain high standards for labour and the environment, and that domestic laws will not be deviated from as a means to gain an unfair trading advantage.

The outcome also includes a special enforcement mechanism that will provide Canada with an enhanced process to ensure the effective implementation of labour reforms in Mexico, specifically related to freedom of association and collective bargaining.

There were a number of other outcomes of note. On supply management sectors, I think it's important to keep in mind that the U.S. did make an explicit and public demand for the complete dismantlement of Canada's supply management system. In the end, we preserved the three key pillars of supply management—production controls, import controls and price controls—and granted only limited access to the U.S.

On intellectual property, obligations cover a broad set of areas, including copyright and related rights, trademarks, geographical indications, industrial designs, patents, pharmaceutical intellectual property, data protection for chemical drugs and agricultural chemical products, and border, civil and criminal enforcement of IP rights, including civil and criminal IP rights enforcement in respect to trade secrets.

Certain outcomes will require changes to Canada's current IP legal and policy framework in certain areas such as copyright, and here we will increase copyright terms of protection as well as provide criminal remedies in respect of rights management information.

IP rights enforcement will also provide ex officio border authority for suspected counterfeit or pirated goods in transit, as well as criminal offences for the unauthorized and willful misappropriation of trade secrets.

In many of these areas we negotiated transition periods to implement our commitments, and importantly, under the amending protocol the parties agreed to remove the obligation to provide 10 years of data protection for biologic drugs, meaning that Canada does not need to change its existing regime in this area.

The agreement also includes a new digital trade chapter that requires parties to have regulatory frameworks in place to address such things as privacy protections and fraudulent and deceptive practices, and we will work together to mitigate threats to our cybersecurity.

The agreement also includes commitments to address barriers to digital trade, such as provisions that ensure that companies and individuals can move information and data across borders in a reliable and secure manner while ensuring that legitimate privacy and security rights are protected.

Other notable outcomes include that we will no longer have trilateral investor state dispute settlement for Canada. We will not have investor state dispute settlement applying between Canada and the U.S. There will be no government procurement chapter in NAFTA with respect to Canada. We will maintain our access to the U.S. under the World Trade Organization's agreement on government procurement.

In closing, I would like to underline that our objectives for these negotiations were informed closely by Canadian priorities and interests, very close engagement with provinces and territories, as well as a wide range of stakeholders that we consulted on an ongoing basis.

This concludes my opening remarks. Alongside my colleagues, we would be pleased to answer any questions you may have.

Thank you.

10:15 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado

Thank you very much.

With that we will begin our first round of questioning. You have six minutes for each question.

I move to Madame Rempel Garner to begin the questions.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Thank you, Madame Chair.

I will start my questions as they pertain to chapter 19.

Reading chapter 19, I notice that it agrees to prohibitions against restrictions on the transfer of personal information, and prohibitions requiring where computing facilities are located, and this has less policy flexibility on data localization under the CPTPP.

Can you table the analysis that shows that chapter 19 of CUSMA will not prevent Canada from adopting laws that would create similar provisions to those contained in article 20 of the GDPR or California's Consumer Privacy Act?

10:15 a.m.

Chief Negotiator and Assistant Deputy Minister, Trade Policy and Negotiations, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Steve Verheul

If I could, Madam Chair, I'd like to bring one of my experts to the table.

10:15 a.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Madam Chair, can you stop the clock? I've lost about 20 seconds already.

10:20 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado

Kindly introduce yourself and then respond to the question.

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Actually, just to be clear, I'm asking if the analysis on that particular provision could be tabled with the committee.

10:20 a.m.

Nolan Wiebe Senior Trade Policy Officer, Information Technologies, Global Affairs Canada

Sorry, we don't have any specific analysis—

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

No analysis was completed on that.

10:20 a.m.

Senior Trade Policy Officer, Information Technologies, Global Affairs Canada

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Thank you. That's good enough.

I'm wondering if you can point me to anything in Bill C-4 that would preserve the rights of Canada to proceed with similar types of legislation.

10:20 a.m.

Robert Brookfield Director General, Trade Law (Deputy Legal Adviser), Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

The bill generally does not indicate where there is policy flexibility. It does the reverse. It will indicate where there is policy limitation. There is nothing in the bill that specifically says where the policy flexibility is in that area.

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Can you table the analysis that shows that British Columbia's data localization laws would survive a challenge per the provisions in chapter 19?

10:20 a.m.

Director General, Trade Law (Deputy Legal Adviser), Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Robert Brookfield

That analysis doesn't exist in report form.

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Okay. That's great.

In the absence of a national data strategy, what guidelines was the government using on data privacy, data generation and ownership in a 5G operating environment and Canada's place in the global data economy when taking a position on chapter 19?

10:20 a.m.

Director General, Trade Law (Deputy Legal Adviser), Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Robert Brookfield

Again, the chapter provides certain policy limits in flexibility—

10:20 a.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Were there specific guidelines on those points used by the negotiating team in putting together chapter 19?

10:20 a.m.

Director General, Trade Law (Deputy Legal Adviser), Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development

Robert Brookfield

There were various considerations in putting together the negotiating position, but there are no documents related to that analysis.