Industry Committee on Jan. 26th, 2021

[Earl Dreeshen, Conservative, Red Deer—Mountain View, AB]

I see that the red card is up. I appreciate that. Again, if at some time you can relate the actual cost per home in the north for what we're looking at here, I would appreciate that. I'll leave that for other rounds.

[Jeff Philipp]

Certainly.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you very much.

Our next round of questions goes to MP Ehsassi.

You have the floor for six minutes.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thanks to our two witnesses for appearing before our committee. Thank you in particular to Mr. Noyes, who had to go to quite some trouble to connect with us today.

Mr. Noyes, I suspect you had a chance to listen to the counsel for Bell when we heard from them earlier this hour. Did you hear from that witness?

[Raymond Noyes]

We were having a few technical problems getting me set up, but I heard some of that.

Mr. Ehsassi, I believe that I was on a conference with other ACORN members and with you some months back. I remember you were very supportive of our ideas, but you were insistent that the CRTC had to recommend any of these things we were proposing.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Absolutely.

After having heard from Bell Media, I'm gobsmacked as to how they present the case.

What is your reaction to what Bell said earlier today?

[Raymond Noyes]

To be honest, I didn't follow enough to have a really strong reaction. I realize that Bell was defending itself, particularly from the charge that it had more complaints than any other telecommunications company. I believe Bell is arguing the case that there is enough competition and that it is competitive.

What we're talking about at ACORN is a whole different level. We're talking about people who definitely can't afford Bell's rates. I've often called Bell to see what the best rate I can get would be, and it's out of my reach. That's about all I can say about that. I wish I'd paid more attention to the Bell representative, but, as I said, I was having a little trouble getting set up.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you for that, Mr. Noyes.

Mr. Philipp, did you have the opportunity to listen to the counsel for Bell, and what would your reaction have been? I'm remiss, in that I didn't get an opportunity to get in there, but I want to present you with the opportunity to set the record straight.

[Jeff Philipp]

Oh, we don't have enough time for that.

I will read what I wrote down at one point because I think, honestly, Mr. Malcolmson was on the hot seat; there's no question.

We've come up against Bell and Mr. Daniels. I do love him, and he's a warrior in his craft, but he's on the wrong side.

So, what did I write down? I do agree with some of what Mr. Malcolmson said about fund access and timing. I probably agree with the other side of the fence about spectrum and set-asides. I certainly disagree with the fact that there's no ability to have competition and that we need monopolies. I don't agree with that one little bit, as well as open gateways.

If you really want to see a website, check out Qimirluk. It's the Inuktitut word for “whalebone”. It is spelled qimirluk.com. It stands for “come here, look,” which is how I explained it to people in Ottawa from Yellowknife.

This has been 20 years. I started this company because of my dissatisfaction with Northwestel, which is a wholly-owned subsidiary of BCE.

What I wrote down was this: “Judge folks by their actions not by their words because, frankly, I've been through the modernization plan, I've been at the hearings in Yellowknife 15 years ago, I've been in Whitehorse 10 years, I've heard the partners who then come back later when they've been disenfranchised and set aside the indigenous partners that helped. I've been there while the CRTC ruled to sell them the cable company after they had DSL and because they promised to put cable in the other communities, including mine. After they got the cable company in Yellowknife, they shut down cable and all the other markets.”

I've heard them threaten to shut down even the investment they got funded from the CRTC to build out the Northwest Territories. I've heard them threaten the GNWT that if the Government of the Northwest Territories supports our request for open access to their infrastructure, specifically TPIA, they may not be able to invest in the Northwest Territories. This is ludicrous.

Frankly, there is room for competition in every market. I grew up in a town of 800 people—95% indigenous—and we are still competing 20 years later. We're the incumbent. We built this long before they got here, and we don't get the subsidies that they get. We fight every four years to get the federal subsidy to bring to the people of Nunavut. I like to say to people that we're the cheapest delivery agent of the federal government's broadband dog food of any department or any organization. We do it cheaper. We co-invest: $80 million by us and $75 million by the federal government since 2004 in Nunavut alone.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you for that.

You've obviously embarked on a very innovative approach.

Would you explain to us how many households you provide service to?

[Jeff Philipp]

There are approximately 10,000 households spread across 25 communities in Nunavut. I think that's 1.5 million or 1.6 million square kilometres. There are no roads—for any of those who don't know. It's very dark and cold at this time of year. There's no light. It's minus 30 to minus 40 degrees. We cover 100% of those homes where there's service. We have a local speaking agent in every community, a local Inuk in most communities.

It's worth noting that Bell or Northwestel don't operate in every community. They operate only in the ones where they find it viable. Outside of Iqaluit, the capital, we currently have over 80% penetration of homes outside of the largest community. Some communities have 120% penetration. Grise Fiord has a very high penetration, and very high are low-income families. To Mr. Noyes' point, it is not affordable, even on our network.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you very much.

We'll move on to the next round.

Mr. Lemire, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

My question is for Mr. Noyes from ACORN.

Mr. Noyes, thank you for being here today. I'd like to hear your views on a situation. In my area, in Abitibi-Témiscamingue, Bell owns Télébec and Cablevision, two telecommunications service providers that have always held a virtual monopoly and that charge some of the highest prices in the world. These two companies have never participated in the connecting families program to help lower-income families purchase affordable packages.

What are your thoughts on this situation?

[Raymond Noyes]

I have to admit that my French is a bit rusty. I used to work in French, but that was some time ago. I couldn't seem to get the interpretation going, but from what I understood of your question, I will say that the connecting families program is only for families with children, and it's fairly limited. We're asking for that to be extended after the pandemic to all low-income Canadians.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

So it's a bit absurd that companies owned by Bell but not named Bell don't provide access to this service to lower-income people.

[Raymond Noyes]

I'm sorry. I didn't quite understand. Could you please repeat that?

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Mr. Noyes, on the bottom of your screen, do you see the little globe that says “Interpretation”?

One moment, Mr. Lemire.

[Raymond Noyes]

Okay. My colleague just helped me out with that. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you.

Mr. Lemire, I had stopped the clock. Please continue.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I'll repeat my question.

Mr. Noyes, I'd like to hear your views on the fact that one company, Bell, owns two companies, Télébec and Cablevision, which hold a virtual three-headed monopoly and which charge some of the highest prices in the world. These two companies have never participated in the connecting families program to help lower-income families purchase affordable packages.

What are your thoughts on this situation?

[Raymond Noyes]

I guess the immediate thought that comes to mind, without filtering myself, is that it's reprehensible. I know that the connecting families program was voluntary and that different telecoms across the country could choose whether or not to participate. If Bell is hiding behind subsidiaries so that people don't generally know that they're not including themselves in this program, that's not very [Technical difficulty—Editor], but of course, once again, just for a moment I'll say that I had trouble with the interpretation. I don't generally get online on a video conference, and I apologize for that.

We're talking about a level of service provision that would extend the connecting families program to all low-income people, and as for whether it's voluntary, that would be later, after the pandemic. For the short term, we're asking the government to provide a benefit of $50 a month to reduce Internet charges. If the $10-a-month Internet for the connecting families program were to be voluntary on behalf of telecoms, I'm not sure, but I think maybe the CRTC could rule that they must participate in such a thing, or possibly the government could provide subsidies for that.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Mr. Noyes, I'll provide another example of Bell's behaviour in Abitibi-Témiscamingue.

To have an advantage over its competitors, Bell maintains that Télébec, Cablevision and Bell are the same company. Sometimes, as well, Bell states otherwise. The goal always seems to be to provide the lowest possible quality service to clients or to inflate prices. Meanwhile, the area isn't being connected to the Internet.

What are your thoughts on this situation? Is it common? Do you see it in other areas?

[Raymond Noyes]

I have to admit that when I've been interviewed on this subject, it's mostly been from the point of view of an individual disabled person who doesn't have the Internet during this pandemic. I'm not aware of the different struggles between the different companies, or what Bell is or isn't doing in different parts of the country, but my general impression from talking to other people is that Bell is possibly the worst offender when it comes to providing the worst service at the highest possible cost. As I said earlier, when I've called to see if I could possibly reach their level of cost for Internet per month, it has been well beyond my reach.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you.

I have one last question for you. Don't you think that the technological advancement of 5G, which requires companies and the government to invest billions of dollars, is only widening the gap between urban and rural areas in terms of affordable Internet access?

What do you recommend to reduce this gap?