Evidence of meeting #31 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was jules.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:15 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado
Thank you very much, Mr. Jules.
We'll now go to Mr. Ross.
Mr. Ross, I'm just going to remind you to keep the microphone as close to your mouth as possible. You have five minutes.
12:15 p.m.
Member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, Skeena, As an Individual
Before the five minutes starts, I was just told by the tech people not to hold the microphone close to my mouth, so how is this coming through? Can the interpreters hear this okay?
12:15 p.m.
The Clerk
Yes, they're okay.
12:15 p.m.
Member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, Skeena, As an Individual
Thank you.
My comments come from the last 17 years of reviewing projects in detail in terms of their viability and process. I bring this as great context for understanding how to build and sustain an economy, which leads to our topic today of competitiveness. I also understand the working end of environmental assessments at both the federal and provincial levels, and the permitting regimes under each ministry.
Unfortunately, now as an MLA, I understand how these processes are formed, and I also understand the ideologies and politics that help shape these processes.
The most important lesson learned is what a good, strong economy does for the strength of an individual, a community, a province and a country. I don't understand why our legislators can't wrap their heads around the idea of competitiveness. We understand competitiveness where we stifle competition from province to province, but we take a different approach when we deal with our biggest trading partner/competitor to the south of us.
When we create so much politics, red tape and taxes for, say, a Canadian concrete company to bid itself out of a Canadian contract, the United States' company that doesn't have the same cost structure comes in and secures that Canadian contract. The same approach of politics, red tape and taxes plays out when we stop the export of oil and gas to Asia, and then we turn around and ship that same resource to the United States so that the U.S.A. can supplement its own overseas export market, as well as domestic markets. This is happening as we speak in B.C., especially with LNG, with U.S.A. wanting to export B.C. LNG because it is cleaner, and we can't get LNG off our shores.
You'll hear stories from the mining industry in B.C. talking about a robust exploration industry, but what you won't hear is that no mining company wants to invest in B.C. No mining company can make an FID. We've gotten to the point where Canadian companies find other countries—which are our competitors, by the way—more welcoming than Canada. Canadian companies take their investment dollars elsewhere just because of our uncompetitive framework.
The only investors who are willing to invest in B.C. for major or semi-major projects are the large worldwide corporations that have enough cash and fortitude to bankroll a $50-million environmental assessment—some cost. Even those corporations are starting to cut their losses and leave Canada.
No doubt you heard about Chevron's decision to take a step back from its $32-billion LNG project in Kitimat. Chevron can't sell its 50% equity stake in that project, a project that has the support of first nations, has two LNG reserves in northeast B.C., and has a fully permitted pipeline and a fully permitted liquefaction facility. They can't get any interest from the worldwide community.
There is something wrong with Canada and B.C.'s competitive structure when a world thirsty for clean energy has no interest in doing business in Canada.
Thank you, Madam Chair.
12:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado
Thank you very much, Mr. Ross.
With that, we will start our rounds of questions.
For our first six-minute round, we will start with MP Poilievre.
You have the floor.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON
Thank you very much.
My questions will start with Mr. Ross.
Mr. Ross, if you listen to the media, you would think that all first nations are against all resource development.
Can you tell me the truth about where the communities you represent stand on these projects?
12:20 p.m.
Member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, Skeena, As an Individual
A lot of the communities that support LNG, for example, do so under their own community processes, under democratically elected leadership. What you see in B.C. right now is a push to silence or marginalize democratically elected first nations people. It's the politics and ideology. It's a big problem in B.C.
In fact, with everything you talked about in terms of the media, nobody has actually gone to all those first nations that signed on to Kinder Morgan or the LNG projects. There are two major LNG projects in Kitimat, and both have the support of first nations.
Nobody wants to do a story on that, because it's not sexy enough. It doesn't make headlines. Yet, already you see the benefit going to all of these communities along the way in addressing poverty, substance abuse, children in care. It doesn't make the news because it's just not sexy.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON
Right.
With regard to all of the journalists and so-called environmental activists who stand in the way of the projects that would lift your people out of poverty, once they succeed at blocking the projects, do they stay around to help your people?
12:20 p.m.
Member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, Skeena, As an Individual
No. In fact, if they don't get the support of the leadership of a community, they will find somebody else within that community to support their opposition.
It's something I have talked about as a number one principle that I see with legislatures: Do not use the first nations for your politics, for those who are among the most disadvantaged people in Canada. Especially in the last 15 years, we have seen light at the end of the tunnel where we can engage in the economy and actually say no to government funding.
12:20 p.m.
Member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, Skeena, As an Individual
No, UNDRIP will not help, especially in the form of Bill 41 that was passed in the B.C. legislature. It's all rhetoric. It's narrative, and it doesn't actually speak to section 35 of the Constitution. It doesn't speak to any of the pursuant case law that defines section 35 of the Constitution. There's no definition. In fact, they have inserted it into the B.C. Environmental Assessment Act.
All that vagueness is going to create more and more uncertainty, and, unfortunately, we're going to have to go to court to find a definition of UNDRIP.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON
First nations have a constitutional right to be consulted about projects that touch upon their territories, and rightly so.
When Justin Trudeau vetoed the northern gateway pipeline, for which first nations communities had $2 billion worth of benefit-sharing agreements, did he consult with the people who were supporting the project in first nations communities?
12:20 p.m.
Member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, Skeena, As an Individual
I don't recall, because my engagement was actually in position to Enbridge under the Conservative government. One of my biggest issues back then was that nobody truly understood the Haida court case on the duty to consult and accommodate, much less the corporations.
In fact, the LNG companies that came in after Enbridge said they would not make the same mistakes as Enbridge.
I actually had apologies from the president of Enbridge after all was said and done for their treatment of aboriginal rights and title. I went through all the processes, all the court cases. I went through all of it, and fundamentally at the core of the issue was an understanding of aboriginal rights and title.
Today it's much different. It's much better. Everybody understands the aboriginal rights and title are here to stay.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON
Excellent.
I understand that all of the elected communities on the right of way of the Coastal GasLink are supporting that natural gas project.
Is that your understanding as well?
April 15th, 2021 / 12:25 p.m.
Member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, Skeena, As an Individual
Without a doubt. They all signed on, including first nations along the tanker route. They signed on. They did it for the benefit that we're all enjoying right now as we speak—for the last five years.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON
With the non-indigenous protestors who were blocking trains and standing in the way and creating these blockages, would you say they represent the first nations communities affected by the Coastal GasLink pipeline and liquefaction project?
12:25 p.m.
Member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, Skeena, As an Individual
No, not even close. In fact, they blockaded the B.C. legislature, and I was told I should support aboriginal rights and title by a protester. I had spent the better part of 15 years doing exactly that to get my people to a better place, along with 17 other first nations along the pipeline. They were all doing it under the banner of rights and title.
A lot of the protestors across Canada don't have a good understanding of what rights and title actually are.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Pierre Poilievre Conservative Carleton, ON
This is a project that will benefit the communities that unanimously elected leaders that unanimously support it and the communities they represent. It will actually reduce global greenhouse gases by replacing foreign oil with clean, green Canadian natural gas. It helps the environment. It helps first nations escape poverty and achieve independence. Isn't that what we're continually told we should be doing?
12:25 p.m.
Member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, Skeena, As an Individual
Well, that's what I learned back in 2004. I've been reviewing LNG projects, forestry projects and solar and wind. You name it, I've reviewed it.
I always thought that was the common denominator: to protect the environment but to actually try to do something for the planet as well as trying to uplift aboriginals.
By the way, when you uplift aboriginals in any setting, you actually make the community stronger, B.C. stronger and, Canada stronger. I don't understand why we're actually allowing the opposition to dictate what's happening here in B.C., in Canada.
12:25 p.m.
Member of the Legislative Assembly of British Columbia, Skeena, As an Individual
Yes.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado
Thank you very much, Mr. Poilievre.
We now go to MP Jowhari.
You have the floor for six minutes.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON
Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to all the witnesses for your testimony today.
I would like to start with Mr. Kotak.
Mr. Kotak, in your opening remarks you said:
Businesses are expected to comply but are unaware. I even found federal agencies who really wanted to help and answer my questions, but were unsure how best to address my inquiries. This is a major barrier to our competitiveness.
Can you expand on that, sir?
12:25 p.m.
Technology Entrepreneur and Strategist, As an Individual
Absolutely, and thank you for your question.
What's happened here with e-commerce and the pandemic is that a lot of businesses have moved to online platforms. Traditionally, we had these brick and mortar locations and we've gone online to do sales channels, but they are not separate. They are actually integrated.
We have this new hybrid economy, where you have to be competent in both areas. That has also created confusion, especially amongst different agencies. From my personal experience, these were agencies that wanted to help by reaching out. For example, if you have the CFIA or the different trade commissioners, the question became, “How do I export to the United States or how do I export to different provinces?” Everything they were given, everything they were told and everything that they have dealt with was related to B2B, business-to-business sales, where you sell to another business or to a distributor and then they sell the products to stores.
Well, what e-commerce has done is that it has taken the consumer right to the business, so it falls into this new category, which many are just unaware of how to operate around. It's not their fault. It's something that's relatively new to a lot of people. That has created a lot of confusion. That has created—