Industry Committee on April 20th, 2021

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for being with us today.

My first question is going to be for Ms. Shaban.

Thank you for being here again. I was able to read the opinion piece that you and Ms. Bednar submitted to the National Post. I found it an interesting point where you talked about the updating of our competition laws can prove to be a double-edged sword. It's a fine kind of balancing act that we're trying to do.

You said that with anything we're trying to do, especially with our digital economy, you want to allow for growth and scale-up of our small start-ups but without restricting competition. That's the fine balancing act.

I look forward to your brief. I am wondering if you had any more comments on that. You came in previously to talk about efficiencies and that notion. However, we've had larger operators come in to talk about the need to scale, and scale is important and size matters.

How do we finally balance that to protect not only these companies that we want to engender to grow but also the consumers ultimately?

[Robin Shaban]

There are two facets to what you're getting at. The first is a knowledge element. We are at a point in economic research where we are trying to understand and grapple with the new digital economy and what that actually means.

As Jim talked about before, the digital economy is inherently different from the commodity economy, so we need to understand what that actually means for competition, and how to create laws that best engage in that sphere. That's the first element, and it points to the fact there are a lot of unknowns.

A second element is revisiting laws that are clearly inequitable. As I said in my opening remarks, we can have a law that promotes efficiency, that allows businesses to get big in order to compete internationally without creating brutal trade-offs between consumers and businesses. Having elements like the efficiencies defence in there clearly undermines that goal.

The core theme is to recognize that competition and policy is inherently political. We're talking about who's going to get what, who is going to be carrying the responsibility as we are monitoring and policing competition in Canada.

I don't have a lot of concrete answers, because these questions are going to require really deep reflection, from a research standpoint and from a political and philosophical standpoint.

[Tony Baldinelli, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Thank you. We look forward to receiving your brief when it comes in.

Mr. Donald, I'd like to welcome you back and thank you for your presentation. I was reviewing my notes. You mentioned the loss of 35% of the workforce. You said that as the surge of demand comes back post-COVID, we're not going to be able to meet that. You talked about colleges only being able to fulfill about 25% of the requirements that industry needs.

My question is based on one of the comments you made about the outdated curricula. How do we go about having that changed and updated, so that we can start training those new employees of the future?

I'll also talk about the credential assessment process. Could you talk about the curricula process? What's involved with that and getting that updated?

[Robert Donald]

Transport Canada has said numerous times that they're going to do this, that they recognize the deficiencies, but they don't have the resources.

Six months ago they told a group of us, including me and Colleges and Institutes Canada, that they were going to get something out in the fall, and they haven't done it. It's a question of resources for them, but they need to speak to industry about what is needed in that program.

They need to stop micromanaging. They don't need to detail the entire list of what needs to be taught. They need to assess competence when students are coming out, but it's a fallacy for them to dictate every course and every task that has to be taught at colleges. They should talk to the industry and simplify the process.

In the U.S., the FAA is getting out of the business of dictating the curricula. Transport Canada might consider that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

We'll now go to MP Ehsassi.

You have the floor for five minutes.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you very much, Madam Chair, and thank you very much to all the witnesses who are appearing before us today.

Mr. Ulicki, thank you for your testimony. It's great to hear from you.

I see you have a parliamentary headphone that was sent to you. When were you invited to speak to this panel?

[Robert Ulicki]

Last week.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

The reason I ask is that I listened very closely to your testimony. I've listened to the responses you have provided, and I share your frustration, but I have yet to hear a single word that has to do with the federal government and what you expect federal parliamentarians to take from your testimony today.

Do you have anything to say about the federal government?

[Robert Ulicki]

In terms of the federal government, I would strongly suggest that it's this trickle-down effect. The federal government helps with the funding of the day cares, but then the provinces turn around and call them the general guidelines. They're responsible for the operations, but then it's at the municipal level where they get tied into all the minutiae of the bylaws.

I would suggest that, since the federal government starts with the funding, they should just ensure that there's enough...or basically reduce the friction through the chain—

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

The only experience you've had is with municipal officials. Am I correct?

[Robert Ulicki]

That is correct. I am not here to criticize the federal government on their policies.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Thank you.

I will go to Mr. Tombe.

Thank you very much for your testimony. I couldn't agree with you more. For decades we've been talking about the need to eliminate interprovincial barriers. I'm often frustrated to see that there's been such little progress.

Who would you say is in the driver's seat insofar as improvements to the agreement on internal trade are concerned? Is it the federal government or the provinces, in your opinion?

[Dr. Trevor Tombe]

That's a great question.

I think what makes this issue particularly difficult to make progress on is that no one is in the driver's seat. There have been various court cases, even through the Supreme Court, attempting to clarify this in different areas. I'd say that it's a collective effort with no single entity.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

To make those changes and to make those improvements, obviously the provinces are the ones that can either demonstrate a willingness to tackle those issues or not. Am I correct?

[Dr. Trevor Tombe]

This varies by product and sector. Some are federally regulated. Some are provincially regulated. When examining the magnitude of internal trade costs on a sector-by-sector basis, the federally regulated and provincially regulated sectors, on average, have similar magnitudes of measured trade costs. One will have more of a direct role in some areas than others.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

I'm just talking about making improvements. I mean, the federal government can't go in there and impose its will on the provinces. Am I correct?

[Dr. Trevor Tombe]

Again, this varies by product. When agricultural inspections cross provincial borders, they would be directly a federal issue. In that case, it does require federal action itself.

Yes, the federal government cannot impose its will in areas where provincial jurisdiction applies, but it is not solely provincial jurisdiction across all sectors and products.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

Let me ask you the question another way.

Some of our largest provinces have run on the mantra of cutting red tape. Have you seen the Government of Ontario really pushing for change insofar as the agreement on internal trade is concerned?

[Dr. Trevor Tombe]

I think we have seen, over the past four years, measured and significantly meaningful improvements, not just by Ontario—again, they can't act unilaterally here—but all provinces, territories and the federal government operating through the CFTA. The progress on work tables has been modest but meaningful for building codes, trucking regulations, agricultural inspections and so on. That requires Ontario. It requires Ottawa. It requires Alberta and all of the above.

[Ali Ehsassi, Liberal, Willowdale, ON]

I hope that we will see more progress on this, because this is truly critical, as you have rightly pointed out.

In the interest of time, I will go to Ms. Shaban, please.

Ms. Shaban, thank you for your testimony. Again, you highlighted a number of different issues that I think this committee should consider for the purposes of its final report. One of the things you spoke of was that very little enforcement was spearheaded by the Competition Bureau.

You have previously asked for more funding for the Competition Bureau. This has been an ongoing issue since 2010, when the Competition Bureau did not have the necessary resources. Could I have your reaction to yesterday's news in the budget that the Competition Bureau will be receiving an additional $96 million over the span of the next five years? In particular—

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

MP Ehsassi, you're over time, but I will let Ms. Shaban answer very quickly.

Thank you.

[Robin Shaban]

My initial reaction is optimism. I'm looking forward to watching closely to see what actually comes of this, in particular how that spending is going to play out in terms of head count and also better tools for enforcement.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you so much.

Mr. Lemire, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I will continue to talk to Mr. Balsillie.

In the knowledge economy, knowledge and innovative ideas obviously drive growth. In your opinion, what measures should Quebec and Canada take to grow our industries and businesses so that they can position themselves smartly in the digital world currently dominated by the U.S. technology giants?

[Jim Balsillie]

Thank you for your question.

The most important thing is education. We need to teach our policy community and our entrepreneurs, and all the people in the organizations, how it works so they can take their fantastic ideas and own them or generate the intellectual property for them so they can command the rents. Alongside that, make sure all of your other programs—your university research funding, your global trade agreements, and so on—insert the kind of rules that advantage your companies, because that's exactly what other countries do to us.

When you look at NAFTA, it has a million words but you will not find the words “free trade” in the agreement. Their companies simply created the words to advance their profits in intangibles by foisting them on other countries.

This is the nature of the world. It's very sharp-elbowed, very rivalrous. It's not a very co-operative system anymore. The road is going to be bumpy for some time on these things, so we have to get ready to contend in this new way.