Industry Committee on May 11th, 2021

[Alexander Kung]

Yes.

[Majid Jowhari, Liberal, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you very much.

I believe that brings me to my five minutes.

[Alexander Kung]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you very much.

Mr. Lemire, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I would like to acknowledge Laure Waridel's presence. It's a privilege to have a distinguished person like her at the committee.

In your opinion, would a true green taxation policy create real incentives to invest or divest in order to reduce the ecological footprint of our individual or collective behaviours?

What do you think?

[Dr. Laure Waridel]

Thank you, Mr. Lemire.

Absolutely, the green taxation is an extraordinary way to bring the market towards eco-friendly choices. Starting with a carbon price is a step in the right direction, but we need to go much further than that if we want to listen to the science and respect our planet's limits with respect to climate and biodiversity.

The green taxation is a way to internalize environmental and social costs, which the market does not currently allow. We are dragging our feet and mortgaging our children's future as a result.

When you go to the grocery store, you will notice that local organic apples cost much more than chemically treated apples imported from Chile, for example. Yet the environmental impact of imported industrially grown apples is much greater than that of local apples.

Climate change is also affecting energy costs. Because of COVID-19, we are now seeing how expensive a health crisis is. We are also seeing the impact of floods and droughts on agriculture.

What I'm urging you all, especially elected officials, to do is to take responsibility, in that the first responsibility of governments is to protect the health and safety of their people.

Right now, the scientific studies are very clear that our inaction will cost human lives and clearly damage the economy. Even the proposals of the World Economic Forum in Davos, which supports traditional neo-liberalism, stress the importance of applying the polluter pays principle and internalizing environmental and social costs.

It is time for Canadians to stop burying our heads in the oil sands, because that is what we are doing by not listening to the science. We are therefore setting up crises that our children will have to face.

I am speaking here today not only as a mother, but also as a scientist. I invite you to read the reports of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC), and those of Ouranos, and to focus on the solutions, because there are solutions.

There is resistance to change, but Canada has a duty to be in this game on behalf of many economic players, some of whom are around the table today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you very much.

MP Masse, you have two and a half minutes.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Mr. Kung, you said earlier that “any green solution is a solution”. I thought that was a really appropriate statement for what we're faced with in terms of competition.

You also mentioned labour being an issue. I come from the manufacturing sector. I believe it's actually important for not only our jobs, our economy and our ecosystem in terms of doing better practices but also our sovereignty. I'd like to ask you specifically about our trade agreements and labour practices. The new agreement we have with the United States and Mexico includes labour and environment in the actual agreement. It's not as strong as what I would hope, but it's there for the first time.

Can you comment on that? What I'm concerned about...and I've even heard this from Mexican delegations coming to Ottawa. They're saying they don't want to be undermined by lower wages. They don't want to be undermined by the environment being abused in order to be competitive. They need to be raised up as opposed to being used as an excuse to undercut the competition.

[Alexander Kung]

Yes, absolutely.

I wouldn't say I'm using expensive labour as an excuse for losing. I think really—

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I didn't mean that you said that, just so we're clear. I don't want that to be the perception. It was just an observation outside of that.

[Alexander Kung]

Yes.

What I would really suggest is that, when it comes to procurement of PPE, it's very viable and also workable if the Canadian government puts in a made-in-Canada requirement for PPE. We're more than capable of doing this.

The only thing we don't have access to right now is nitrile gloves, which are in very high demand and very short supply because the raw material, latex, is completely monopolized by Thailand and Malaysia. If these procurements and these bids really focus on made-in-Canada products, and companies that bid can actually show proof that we manufacture and do the testing here, then we can start to build up our own economy a little bit better and be allowed to jump-start all of these Canadian businesses that invented....

I'm sorry. That's time. Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

We'll now go to MP Poilievre.

You have five minutes.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Thank you very much.

My question is for those who would like to answer it. It is about green energy.

One of the witnesses said earlier that electricity is cheaper in Quebec than elsewhere, and that is true. Quebec set up Hydro-Québec. In Ontario, the province right next door, the price of electricity is much higher than Quebec sells it for in the United States.

Of course, this is not Quebec's fault. Quebec is willing to sell its electricity to Ontario, but the Ontario government has decided to buy its electricity from wind and solar providers at much higher prices.

We could have bought electricity from our neighbours, Quebec and Manitoba, with zero greenhouse gas emissions, but for some reason we chose to buy it at exorbitant prices, forcing companies like Mr. Sobot's to leave the country to expand elsewhere.

Why do governments pay more for electricity when it's green and cheaper here in Canada?

[Dr. Josipa Gordana Petrunic]

Thank you very much, MP Poilievre.

With regard to the question, I'm going to speak very briefly on an application side and then leave it to my colleagues on the fuel supply side.

On the application side, it is important to put the fact out that, despite the high electricity prices in Ontario and other jurisdictions in Canada compared with those of our colleagues in the U.S., when you pump that energy as electrons or as hydrogen produced from an electrolyzer through a propulsion system on a bus, a car, a truck or a train, it is always cheaper than is the diesel or natural gas comparison.

The reality is that despite higher than normal prices compared with those of our global competitors, it is important to put the fact out there that, on the manufacturing side and on the transit adoption side, those higher electricity prices are actually not a barrier to adoption. In fact, that relates to the physics of the powertrain. There is no comparison with regard to the efficiency of the electrified powertrains.

It is often positioned as a problem, but in fact it is not a barrier. In many provinces like Manitoba, B.C., Alberta and Quebec, it is substantially, by orders of magnitude, cheaper.

I wanted to add that.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Right.

If I may say so, Ontario is producing its electricity by burning natural gas. That's one of the principal sources of electricity in the province. You can simply pass the natural gas combustion from the vehicle on to the electrical generation, but it has the same effect.

We could have avoided that if, instead of spending 1,000% more than we had to in order to buy electricity through solar panels and paying 500% or 600% more in order to buy electricity from windmills, we had simply bought it from emission-free nuclear and emission-free Quebec and Manitoba hydroelectricity.

It's an example of where things have gone wrong to the detriment of the environment and the economy.

[Dr. Josipa Gordana Petrunic]

If I may, sir, just as a slight fact check on that statement, I understand it is a common assumption that there is a longer tailpipe on electrified vehicles, in particular where there's coal on the grid or natural gas through peaker plants.

In fact, we've completed over 30 mathematical and physics studies across Canada. Given the efficiency of the transfer of energy in the powertrain, the only jurisdiction in Canada where, under very specific circumstances, electrification is slightly more dirty than a diesel equivalent is in the deepest of winter in Edmonton, when the bus is full and going up a hill, which almost never happens.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

In fairness, that wasn't my question. My question didn't relate to electric vehicles. It related to electrical generation, so I regret that we've gotten so far off track.

Perhaps someone else would like to address the actual question.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Unfortunately, Mr. Poilievre, you have about 10 seconds.

I will let whoever wants to jump in....

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

In that case, we've lost the chance to address the actual question, but maybe next time I would ask—

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

What was the question?

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

The question was why we are spending orders of magnitude more on wind and solar electricity when we could have eliminated emissions through the purchase of hydroelectricity and nuclear.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Unfortunately, you're way over time.

Very quickly, Mr. Lyman. You have literally 10 seconds or less.

[Robert Lyman]

The Ontario government had estimated that it would gain 50,000 jobs. The Fraser Institute estimates that as a result of the Ontario pricing policies the province lost 75,000 jobs.

[The Chair, Liberal, Sherry Romanado]

Thank you very much.

[Pierre Poilievre, Conservative, Carleton, ON]

Let's not do that again.