Evidence of meeting #7 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 43rd Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was crtc.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ian Scott  Chairperson and Chief Executive Officer , Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
Renée Doiron  Director, Broadband and Networking Engineering, Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission
Matt Stein  President and Chief Executive Officer, Competitive Network Operators of Canada (CNOC)
Erin Knight  Digital Campaigner, OpenMedia
John M. Rafferty  President and Chief Executive Officer, CNIB Foundation
Geoff White  Director, Legal and Regulatory Affairs, Competitive Network Operators of Canada (CNOC)
Laura Tribe  Executive Director, OpenMedia

12:55 p.m.

Director, Legal and Regulatory Affairs, Competitive Network Operators of Canada (CNOC)

Geoff White

One of the ways forward would be for the commission to actually enforce its decisions and its regulatory requirements. The commission has numerous powers under the Telecommunications Act already and it has the power to impose administrative monetary penalties.

It appears, though, that there's been a reluctance to enforce compliance with the requirements—

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Sorry for interrupting you. What would attribute that reluctance to?

12:55 p.m.

Director, Legal and Regulatory Affairs, Competitive Network Operators of Canada (CNOC)

Geoff White

I wouldn't want to speculate on behalf of the commission. However, I do believe that there is a lot of ex parte communications happening, which may be normal course in the regulation of a major industry. There may be some back-channel discussions going on. I'm not saying it's in a way that's unduly influential.

It may just be a question of will as well. Every time the regulator tries to do something, there's a fight. There's a delay and there's a fight. Some of the incumbents don't even respond to commission questions. We're asking them to propose network configurations. Gambits like that are accumulating to strangle competition in Canada right now—

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

How can we make it more accountable?

12:55 p.m.

Director, Legal and Regulatory Affairs, Competitive Network Operators of Canada (CNOC)

Geoff White

We can catch the shareholder's attention through penalties, which the commission has as a remedy.

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you.

I would like to next go to OpenMedia.

Madam Knight, you talked about the fact during COVID-19, urban areas have had service that is 10 times faster than rural service. Aside from the fact that demand is now higher with everybody working from home and kids studying at home, and there is a need for more bandwidth and more data, to what would you attribute the fact that urban areas were getting 10 times faster speed than rural areas?

12:55 p.m.

Digital Campaigner, OpenMedia

Erin Knight

Historically we have seen communities in rural Canada underserved overall. It's just not a place where big telecom has historically put its interests, because the business case is usually not there. We saw the investment happening in urban and suburban communities because there was no push in these other programs like the universal broadband fund during this time, which was supposed to help connect these communities.

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Do I understand that it is easier for the big telcos that are in the urban areas to open the valve and get much higher speed, whereas the smaller providers that are in the rural areas cannot open up the valve and get as much speed because they are dependent on the large telcos? Am I reading that right?

1 p.m.

Digital Campaigner, OpenMedia

Erin Knight

Laura, it seemed as though you wanted to jump in.

1 p.m.

Executive Director, OpenMedia

Laura Tribe

Yes, you are reading that correctly. I think when we're looking at rural Canada, users are already maxed out. They are getting the highest speeds available to them and have been the entire time, whereas in urban centres it's been much easier to call in and increase their plans, to make the switch from cable to fibre. That's an option that is just not available with rural bandwidth.

1 p.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

I have 30 seconds and I want to go back to Madam Knight.

What actions can the government take? You seem to think it's because of government inaction. I want to understand what actions the government can take.

1 p.m.

Digital Campaigner, OpenMedia

Erin Knight

Overall, we're hearing that this piecemeal approach to connecting all of Canada is not going to be effective. We need a national approach to connecting everyone in Canada whereby they know when they will be connected and what service they will get.

1 p.m.

Liberal

Majid Jowhari Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you.

1 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado

Thank you very much.

Our next question goes to Monsieur Lemire.

1 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Competitive Network Operators of Canada (CNOC)

Matt Stein

Connecting 100% of Canadians will take all the technologies that we have available to us, but in the end, terrestrial access is going to provide lower-latency/higher-quality access.

So, yes, satellites will absolutely be an important part of the strategy, but we need to put everything behind this. We need to use all of the technologies available.

1 p.m.

Digital Campaigner, OpenMedia

Erin Knight

I think at this point nothing is off the table when it comes to improving affordability in Canada. At this point, connecting everyone to affordable Internet relies a lot on competition. I think nothing is totally off the table.

Laura, if there's more you want to add to that, feel free.

1 p.m.

Executive Director, OpenMedia

Laura Tribe

I think if we're looking at options like structural separation, which was brought up earlier, we are very supportive of trying to ensure that competing business interests don't interfere with good quality or service. That's an option.

I think if we're looking at something like nationalizing, that's a conversation we're willing to have, but we're also looking at some of the ways to maybe try to save the existing system and deploy services as quickly as possible. While we are happy to entertain those conversations, we recognize that those things are not going to fix things overnight either.

1 p.m.

Executive Director, OpenMedia

Laura Tribe

I'm sorry, my connection cut out for a second. Can you repeat the last part of your question?

1 p.m.

Executive Director, OpenMedia

Laura Tribe

I think there's a lot of room for more support for competition from the CRTC. We haven't seen the results on things like MVNOs, on wireless, or the support for smaller providers that we would like to make sure that there is a sufficiently competitive marketplace.

1 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado

Our last round of questions goes to MP Masse.

You have the floor for two and a half minutes.

1 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I want to move back to the CNIB with regard to not only the complications inherent to an individual's running their own wireless and wired network at home, but also to.... What has been the status of applications for support on devices and so forth?

I've noticed that there have been several government initiatives to assist small businesses, medium-sized business and some large business with investments, but there seems to be a void at times of including applications for persons with disabilities.

I wanted to note that and give you an opportunity to talk about that cost and if we're accidentally baking in some barriers to some of the tech supports we could be doing just by leaving them out as part of the conditions of terms of some of the loans, grants and programs that companies are enjoying.

1:05 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, CNIB Foundation

John M. Rafferty

Obviously, I think it's been unprecedented over the last eight months with everyone's workplaces going virtual and our schools going virtual. Not only that, but Canadians who are blind or partially sighted moving to touchless environments, creating new technologies that are inaccessible in their very nature, has also layered on additional stresses.

I'm glad to be here. I know the focus of people's questions has been very much on the other two witnesses, and understandably so. I do want to make sure that everyone remembers the more than 6 million Canadians who do not get supported the same way in how they participate in the world of work and how they contribute to our economy, and there is no reason why they shouldn't. Inherent barriers of access and affordability are growing the divide between the haves and have-nots from a data perspective, and I think that's something that has to end. I'm glad this committee is looking at it with a level of vigour.

1:05 p.m.

NDP

Brian Masse NDP Windsor West, ON

Thank you. That would go for low-vision people as well; I know that's a forgotten group.

Thank you very much.

I see the card, Madam Chair.

Thank you again.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Sherry Romanado

Thank you very much, and with that, I'd like to thank the witnesses for being here today, for your patience and your excellent testimony and for answering a lot of the questions that we have.

With that, I will call this meeting adjourned.