Industry Committee on April 15th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

It's duly noted, Mr. Masse. I appreciate your comment.

I yield the floor to Mr. Turnbull.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

In this committee there are lots of things that are worked through on the fly. In this particular case, we're trying to create a subamendment that both aligns with Quebec and deals with some of the concerns committee members raised. I call that compromise, collegiality and a constructive process. Those are the intentions behind circulating that, so I take issue with the sentiments from Mr. Masse on that. It's actually a constructive way to move forward, and I think it deals with a lot of the concerns that committee members have brought up. Obviously, we can debate that. I think that, because G-2 hinges on the vote on NDP-2, it's perfectly legitimate to bring that up and have the conversations about how these concepts work together, all on the same definition of “anonymize”, and that's important.

I don't know whether there's a path forward here, but I wonder, if we had a moment to suspend and consider the wording, whether we could find a path forward on what I've circulated and then come back and vote on NDP-2. Chair, I respectfully ask if committee members are willing to suspend for just five minutes to consider and to see whether we can find a path forward on both NDP-2 and G-2, and when we come back perhaps we can vote.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

I'm inclined to allow a suspension for five minutes, and then when we come back we vote on NDP-2.

Is that fair with everyone?

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Just to be clear on what we're doing, will we go in camera so that the public doesn't see what happens as we negotiate something behind closed doors, and then we'll re-emerge with a decision, after we've been in public all this time? I just want to be clear on how this will work.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

I understand, Mr. Masse, that Mr. Garon has read the text of the subamendment that was sent to committee members on the record, so that's essentially what will be discussed by members. The only reason I see is that members can really read the text, take some time to read it. Then, if we want to debate some more, we can always debate some more, but NDP-2 will still be, of course, on the agenda and ready to be voted on when we come back—in five minutes, I'd say, because we're already almost done with this meeting.

We will suspend for five minutes for members to read the subamendment, and then we'll be back.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

We are back. I believe the white smoke has emerged, so Mr. Turnbull, go ahead.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

We had a good discussion among all the different parties represented and their vice-chairs. We discussed how we could work on a subamendment to NDP-2.

Essentially, we would take out “generally accepted best practices”, but still include language on “reasonably foreseeable risk”. To add that back in, we would work on wording to return to the committee at our next meeting, so that we could move past this fairly quickly. That would mean G-2 would not be moved or would not be admissible.

We'll do that work between now and the next meeting, so we can get past NDP-2 and move on. That's what we agreed to.

The only other thing is that I know Mr. Perkins has a motion that he wants to deal with. We thought perhaps we could deal with that for the last 10 minutes, Chair, if you're okay with that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

You're making my life and my job very easy, Mr. Turnbull. Thank you very much.

We'll get to NDP-2 as amended at the next meeting.

Mr. Perkins, the floor is yours for your motion.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, MP Turnbull.

I think there was a caveat there, which is that MP Masse wants to make sure he's comfortable with the wording since it's his original amendment to the bill. Thanks for doing that.

We put a motion on notice last week. I won't go over schedule versus schedule 1 again, but in that discussion, we're talking about schedule 1 and schedule 2.

One of the concerns we have around schedule 2 I talked about, but the deputy minister spoke to a group of lawyers at the TD Bank tower and basically said that the content management definition of “high-impact systems” would allow them to ask for and access AI algorithms in any content moderation that, I believe, he terms as “biased”.

With that, I'd like to move the following motion:

That, in relation to Bill C-27, An Act to enact the Consumer Privacy Protection Act, the Personal Information and Data Protection Tribunal Act and the Artificial Intelligence and Data Act and to make consequential and related amendments to other Acts, and given that;

(a) Simon Kennedy, the Deputy Minister of Innovation, Science, and Economic Development, was the keynote speaker at the “Business Leaders Breakfast” at McCarthy Tétrault's Strategic Advisors at the TD Bank Tower in Toronto, on November 7, 2023; and

(b) given that the Deputy Minister read from a pre-prepared 20-minute speech discussing the department's most recent developments on the use of AI, which included discussions of moderating and prioritizing the social media content Canadians see for the purposes of combatting online misinformation through Bill C-27;

the committee therefore order the production of (i) the draft speaking notes recommended to the Deputy Minister for use by his department in relation to the breakfast, and (ii) the final version of the speaking notes that the Deputy Minister relied upon during his appearance at the breakfast, and that these documents shall be deposited with the clerk of the committee, in both official languages, no later than—

It said today, but I'm going to suggest April 22, 2024. That's a week from now. Perhaps somebody could give us an indication of whether that's enough time to get it in both official languages, since I'm not aware of whether it was produced in such language.

We could obviously be flexible by another week, perhaps, on that date. Surely, with the translation resources available to the Government of Canada, the deputy minister's speech could be translated within two weeks.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you, Mr. Perkins.

I have Mr. Turnbull, on the motion.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

We don't have a problem with this. I think the only thing was the date.

Could we amend it to say “as soon as possible”? Would that be sufficient for the Conservatives?

That way you're sure to get it as soon as we can make it available.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Mr. Perkins.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I understand they meant [Inaudible—Editor]. That's why I suggested the 22nd or perhaps a week later.

I think that nothing focuses the mind like a hanging in the morning, so if we could set a date, that would perhaps be more appropriate to make sure the government works towards a specific date.

I would suggest saying two weeks from now. If that's a problem, that could be conveyed to the clerk and we could seek another, more reasonable time.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Okay, let's say May 1. Would that work?

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Sure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Is there a consensus to amend the date at the end of the motion to May 1?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

(Motion as amended agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

Okay, the motion is adopted. Thank you, Mr. Perkins.

Thanks to the officials for joining us yet again today, and see you Wednesday.

The meeting is adjourned.