Evidence of meeting #127 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was merger.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Pierre Larouche  Professor, Law and Innovation, Faculty of Law, Université de Montréal, As an Individual
Matthew Boswell  Commissioner of Competition, Competition Bureau Canada
Antonio Di Domenico  Secretary, Competition Law and Foreign Investment Review Section, The Canadian Bar Association
Anthony Durocher  Deputy Commissioner, Competition Promotion Branch, Competition Bureau Canada

11 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Happy Monday morning, everyone. Welcome to meeting number 127 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Industry and Technology.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders.

Pursuant to the order of reference of Wednesday, February 7, 2024, the committee is commencing consideration of Bill C‑352, An Act to amend the Competition Act and the Competition Tribunal Act.

Today we have Mr. Jagmeet Singh with us.

Mr. Singh, thank you for joining us to present your bill.

Before we begin, I would ask all participants to consult the cards on the table for guidelines on the use of earpieces. This is for the health and safety of all participants, especially our interpreters.

Without further ado, I yield the floor to Mr. Singh.

11 a.m.

NDP

Jagmeet Singh NDP Burnaby South, BC

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I am extremely happy to be here. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to present my thoughts on my bill.

I know competition is not a topic that a lot of Canadians think is relevant in their lives, but I believe this is fundamentally important for Canadians. I think of two examples for why this is such an important bill: food, and cellphone and Internet fees.

When we talk about food in our country right now, we're up against a really serious situation, as you know, Mr. Chair. Canadians are faced with record food bank usage. One out of four Canadians are skipping meals because the cost of food is so expensive. Canadians know that when they go into a grocery store and they're paying the highest fees ever for their groceries, on the other end of that, they have corporate CEOs who are making record profits for their corporations. They're being gouged and ripped off. That has to stop.

We know this is not something that Canadians are unfamiliar with. Back in 2018, the large corporate grocery stores and bread producers worked together to rip off Canadians with the bread price-fixing scheme. We know the cost of that was significant. Canadians were ripped off to the tune of $5 billion, but the biggest fine that was levied for one of the major players of this bread price-fixing scheme, Canada Bread Company, got a fine of $50 million.

In the scheme of things, when the collective benefit they accrued was $5 billion that they ripped off Canadians, a $50 million fine is a slap on the wrist. That has to stop.

We know that protecting consumers and fighting back against corporate greed will lower the cost of food and the cost of living for Canadians.

The other area where we know this is significant is when it comes to cellphone and Internet fees. We pay amongst the highest cellphone and Internet fees in the world. It's no surprise that as a result of merger after merger, there is a massive concentration. Just three cellphone and Internet providers make up the majority of cellphone and Internet services in our country. They are Rogers, Bell and Telus.

We recently saw a merger, which only makes things worse. The merger between Rogers and Shaw is only going to mean higher costs for consumers and fewer options. Again, this is going to make life more unaffordable. It's another example of corporate greed.

That merger should have never happened. My bill would allow for measures to ensure that doesn't happen in the future or it makes it a lot more difficult.

We know the cost of living is up and we know that corporate greed is driving it up. My bill hopes to prevent that from continuing. Stopping large corporations from ripping off consumers will lower prices for Canadians.

I believe the role of government is to strengthen and protect consumer's rights and protect consumers against exploitation. That's what I hope to do with my bill.

I want to break down some specifics to hopefully lay the foundation for your questions.

Since the introduction of my bill, we have been able to force the government to make significant changes to their existing bills to protect consumers. I want to go over those changes that have been made. These are changes to Bill C-56 and Bill C-59.

New Democrats put forward amendments to specifically increase penalties for anti-competitive behaviour and to make it easier for the Competition Bureau to go after these large corporations when they rip off Canadians.

We also specifically changed definitions to include price gouging as an offence.

We also ensured that the Competition Bureau is able to initiate investigations so it can actually identify when problems are happening, compel documents and go after corporate greed.

There have been changes now, because of what we forced the government to do, that would make it harder for mergers such as the Rogers-Shaw merger.

There are three things that are outstanding—or fundamentally two main areas.

One is the bread price-fixing that I spoke about. That remains something that is not covered in the way that it should be by the Liberal government. They've refused to put in place strengthened penalties.

If corporations are doing the crime, then they have to pay the fine. What we want to see happen is that, in the cases of large corporations working together to rip off Canadians, there should be severe and significant fines. That's something that's missing in this bill.

We think there should be certain mergers that, if they hurt Canadians, should be banned outright. Not an assessment of whether this will hurt or not hurt, or whether they should go ahead or not. If they reach a certain level, they should be banned outright. That's a change this government was unwilling to do.

I would point out that I believe the government can be a force for good for Canadians. It can fight corporate greed and make life affordable.

For decades, the Liberals and Conservatives have ignored corporate greed. They have purposely ignored strengthening the rights of consumers and ignored the tools that the Competition Bureau needs to take on corporate greed. I hope to change that with this bill. We have done some significant changes with amendments and this will finish the job.

11:05 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Thank you very much, Mr. Singh.

To start the discussion, I'll turn it over to MP Williams for six minutes.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Singh, you claim you're working for the fairness of people and Canadians and you're here today to claim that you're standing up for competition.

After your agreement with the Liberal government—that's now been for over two and a half years—three mergers have gone through. RBC purchased HSBC. That's Canada's number one bank buying the number seven bank. Rogers bought Shaw, and WestJet bought Sunwing.

This has been detrimental to Canadians. Canadians are hurting right now.

Why did you not stand up for Canadians and say no to these mergers?

11:05 a.m.

NDP

Jagmeet Singh NDP Burnaby South, BC

That's not all the case. We did absolutely say no to those mergers. We said they were wrong at the time. We're not just saying that it's wrong; now I'm putting forward a bill that would prevent those things from happening. We put forward amendments to the other bills that I noted to make it harder for these types of mergers to happen. We have been very vocal opposing mergers that have hurt Canadians. I've asked questions in Parliament on these very matters. I'm putting forward a bill in my name that would specifically ban mergers of companies that make up more than 60% of market share. In addition, we've put amendments that make it harder for mergers that are 30% and above.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

Mr. Singh, you do have an agreement with the government, and at any time you could have ended that agreement. You could have included this stipulation in the agreement. At the end of the day, we look at these agreements as useless because, in not standing up for Canadians, these corporations have gotten bigger.

When we look at HSBC and RBC, and RBC buying HSBC. Even in Vancouver, where you reside, HSBC had 10% of the book for mortgages. After that merger, interest rates went up almost 1%. More importantly, profits went up.

Can you tell me, Mr. Singh, in this last quarter ending March 31, how much more RBC's profit increased versus the last quarter of December 2023? Give me a number.

11:05 a.m.

NDP

Jagmeet Singh NDP Burnaby South, BC

We are absolutely opposed to these types of mergers. That's why we're putting forward a bill to do exactly that. If the Conservatives are in support of these types of changes, I would invite them to support my bill, which would ban outright any merger that increases the market share beyond 60%.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

Mr. Singh, just give me a number, please.

11:05 a.m.

NDP

Jagmeet Singh NDP Burnaby South, BC

Support the bill. The bill is about ending these types of mergers, stopping mergers that hurt Canadians.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

Mr. Singh—

11:05 a.m.

NDP

Jagmeet Singh NDP Burnaby South, BC

For a long time, Conservatives ignored this problem.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

—the number is $1 billion. That's how much more profit RBC made in the first quarter of 2024 versus the last quarter of 2023. HSBC only made $300 million in that last quarter.

You can see what happens when mergers go through. Not standing up for Canadians means that Canadians are hurting. When we look at cellphone bills, which you have mentioned, Canadians do pay the highest cellphone bills in the world, yet you stood up and didn't say no to the Rogers-Shaw merger.

11:05 a.m.

NDP

Jagmeet Singh NDP Burnaby South, BC

That's not true. We did say no.

11:05 a.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

At the end of the day, you could have ended this merger. You could have stood up to the government and said, “This is our red line. We're not going to do this.”

What's happened since then is that Rogers and Shaw have both benefited.

I'm going to start with this. The Prime Minister, whom you support, said in the House of Commons that cellphone bills had gone down by half. He said that. He said that cellphone bills are down by half, so I'm going to ask you a simple question. How much more in the year ending March 31, 2023 did Rogers make—this is wireless revenue per user—than the year prior? Give me a number.

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Jagmeet Singh NDP Burnaby South, BC

We firmly opposed the Rogers-Shaw merger. I ask questions in question period directly of the ministers and of the government. I've been on the record. I don't know if the member ever asked a question about this, ever. I've asked questions on this directly of the Prime Minister and said it's wrong. I'm putting forward a bill that we're discussing right now that would protect consumers against these types of mergers. I'm literally addressing this matter in a law that we are talking about right now.

If the Conservatives are interested in protecting consumers, which is news to me, then they could support my bill that would ban mergers that increase market share beyond 60%.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

Mr. Singh—

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Jagmeet Singh NDP Burnaby South, BC

I oppose mergers that hurt Canadians, and we've got bills right now, a bill in front of this committee, that would do exactly that, protect consumers against mergers.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

—you're talking to the competition critic, the shadow minister, for the Conservative Party, because our leader decided that competition was important enough to put someone in this position. When we talk about where you could have been, you're in another position. You could have stopped the government from approving these three mergers that have hurt Canadians.

We say that it's a walking contradiction. You're standing up for these corporations, which have only gotten bigger—

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Jagmeet Singh NDP Burnaby South, BC

I'm not standing up for them; I'm opposing them.

11:10 a.m.

Conservative

Ryan Williams Conservative Bay of Quinte, ON

—since you've been in power, and consumers have less power. We're not seeing the prices come down. We're not seeing competition. You presented a bill, and we presented lots of changes. You and I both proposed a change to the efficiencies defence, which this government stole from us.

You're not standing up for Canadians, and Canadians feel that you've sold them out. They feel that you're not standing up to the corporations. They feel that they're not going to do it, so people only trust the actions....

Mr. Singh, the other change that we're pushing for in Canada is open banking. If we want to talk about taking a chunk out of the banks in Canada, open banking would do that. In the U.K., when open banking was implemented, it saved the average person in the U.K. $400 a year. There are no transactional fees, no monthly fees and no overdraft fees with open banking, and that's with only 14% market share.

This government took six years to bring legislation forward. They picked a regulator and only gave them a pittance, $1 million, to get the regulations in. This regulator, FCAC, was just in front of a Senate committee.

Do you know how many of the 27,000 complaints they have answered since 2019? Can you just tell me the number?

11:10 a.m.

NDP

Jagmeet Singh NDP Burnaby South, BC

It's interesting. I'm literally saying to the member that we are opposed to large corporations ripping off Canadians. I have opposed the mergers. The member knows that very well; he knows that I've stood up and opposed them. I don't know if the member himself has ever asked a question on this in question period, but I have; and I can say further that I noticed that the member has not asked a single question about the corporate greed of grocery stores.

Is it because your leader has been a receiver of a max donation from the CEO of Metro? Is it because the corporate or the Conservative strategist for the party is a lobbyist for Loblaws? Maybe that's why they're not willing to talk about corporate food and corporate grocery stores, but I am. I'm ready to take them on. I'm ready to take on all corporations when it comes to ripping off Canadians.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Thank you, Mr. Singh and Mr. Williams.

Mr. Turnbull, the floor is yours for six minutes.

11:10 a.m.

Liberal

Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON

Thanks, Chair, and thanks to Mr. Singh for being here today.

It's kind of ironic hearing the Conservatives talk about saving $400 per year when they won't support saving families money on child care, dental care, pharmacare or feeding hungry kids, or a Canada disability benefit, or, or, or. The list goes on, including the Canada child benefit, and many more.

Mr. Singh, I know you are saying that you forced us to do certain things. Obviously I will have to disagree on that, because the Government of Canada has put forward multiple rounds of revisions to the Competition Act—BillC-19, Bill C-56, and Bill C-59—and I think the collaborative efforts of working together with the NDP on some of those changes have been very productive. I think we should all take that approach when doing our parliamentary work, because what we're really here for is to serve Canadians.

We know competition in the market. More competition means more options and better prices. We've been saying that since day one. I think we may beg to differ on some aspects, but that's the government's standpoint.

Mr. Singh, I want to take a step back. I'm interested in your approach to competition reform—and here I know you're a former defence attorney and a defender of the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Would you say that you appreciate the principles of natural justice that are protected under the charter?

11:15 a.m.

NDP

Jagmeet Singh NDP Burnaby South, BC

I think I know where the member is going with this line of questioning.

As a lawyer, I can tell you that what we've found is that giving judges pure discretion when it comes to setting sentences has resulted in the case that I gave you of the $5 billion, which large corporations have ripped off Canadians with bread pricing. The biggest fine that a judge levied in that case was $50 million, which is a slap on the wrist if you think about $5 billion in net revenue.

What I'm hoping to establish are some guidelines for judges. Judges follow guidelines. They're going to follow jurisprudence. The highest fine was $50 million. That's not going to be a significant deterrent.

What we've said is that the judge should be able to use deterrence to the extent of 10% of the revenue of a company. In the case of Loblaws, with $60 billion in revenue, the judge should be able to impose a fine of $6 billion. That is deterrence. Without having guidelines, judges won't go further than jurisprudence, and right now $50 million is the highest fine that's ever been levied. It's far too low.

11:15 a.m.

Liberal

Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON

However, you agree that the judge, jury and executioner shouldn't be concentrated in any given commissioner? Do you not agree that in some cases we need a clear separation between the investigative and adjudicative functions; hence, we have a commissioner and a tribunal within competition?