Evidence of meeting #127 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was merger.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
When you started to attack Loblaws and other grocers—
11:35 a.m.
NDP
Jagmeet Singh NDP Burnaby South, BC
—which is that corporate greed is driving up food. I'm attacking all the large corporate grocery stores.
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Mr. Chair, would you tell him to stop talking over me so that I get to ask questions?
11:35 a.m.
NDP
Jagmeet Singh NDP Burnaby South, BC
Maybe the member doesn't want to do that because his leader receives maximum donations from the CEO of Metro.
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
11:35 a.m.
NDP
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
The NDP leader is talking over my questions. He's a witness. He doesn't get to pose the questions. He's harming the translators while he talks over me as I ask questions.
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound
From my standpoint, it's been going both ways. You are both skilled parliamentarians. The practice is usually that the answer should be about as long as the question, and the questions have been fairly long, Mr. Perkins.
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound
Please, just try to keep that in mind going forward, for all members.
Mr. Perkins, the floor is yours.
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
When you began the crusade on the grocery stores, did you clear your stand with the Ethics Commissioner, because of your brother's conflict, before you chose to attack all the other grocers except the one he works for?
11:35 a.m.
NDP
Jagmeet Singh NDP Burnaby South, BC
First of all, that's patently false, and the member knows it. I've attacked every CEO who's ripping off Canadians, including Metro's, including Sobeys' and including Loblaws'. The member knows that. The member's lies will not change the fact that right now I'm talking about taking on corporate greed, when the Conservatives want to talk about everything but that, trying to attack family members rather than attacking the corporate greed of these large corporations.
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
You've gone after Loblaws over 70 times, and hardly ever mentioned the word “Metro” until we just asked you. Are you saying that you did not clear your attack on the grocers and your direct conflict with your brother's work with the Ethics Commissioner? You didn't bother to do that?
11:35 a.m.
NDP
Jagmeet Singh NDP Burnaby South, BC
The member knows that I have attacked all corporate greed by name, specifically including the CEO—
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Did your brother ever meet with the CEO of Metro?
11:35 a.m.
NDP
Jagmeet Singh NDP Burnaby South, BC
—the CEO of Sobeys. I've attacked Walmart and Costco.... The Conservatives, though, are unwilling to go after corporate greed. It is very telling that they are unwilling to go after corporate greed.
11:35 a.m.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Your answer [Inaudible—Editor] my questions. Did your brother ever meet with the CEO of Metro?
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound
Thank you, Mr. Perkins and Mr. Singh. That's enough, we're out of time.
I'll now turn it over to MP Badawey for five minutes.
11:35 a.m.
Liberal
Vance Badawey Liberal Niagara Centre, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Mr. Singh, for being here today.
I'm not going to attempt to put the focus on the politics of the life that we live here in Ottawa, nor the parties that we represent. I want to put the focus on people and fairness.
When the government introduced Bill C-56 and Bill C-59, that's in fact what we did: We put the emphasis on people and on fairness with respect to competition reform. To some extent I think that's what you're trying to do here, too, and I appreciate that.
With that said, through those bills we have established strengthened market studies and the power to compel. We've clamped down on anti-competitive behaviour and cross-industry collaboration. We've removed the efficiencies defence, strengthened the right to repair, strengthened anti-greenwashing provisions, strengthened merger review and cracked down on unfair pricing practices—including drip pricing—as well as strengthening monetary penalties.
I've read your PMB, and I appreciate the intent, but also appreciate what we've accomplished through Bill C-56 and Bill C-59.
What I really want to do is get a bit more granular, Mr. Singh, and drill down on the business part of it, not the politics of it.
You mentioned some of the missing elements of those bills. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you said they were missing strengthened penalties. Therefore, my first question is: What more strengthened penalties do you want to have, over and above what are identified in both of those bills? My second question is whether certain mergers should be banned if they reach a certain level.
Can we get a bit more granular on that? Quite frankly, my intent is to take something away from this discussion and accomplish what you, we, the committee—I would only assume all of us—want to accomplish with respect to being fair, and again, attaching it to the people whom we represent.
11:40 a.m.
NDP
Jagmeet Singh NDP Burnaby South, BC
Thank you.
I think it's an important reflection to just bring it back to whom this bill is about. This bill is about people. It's about people who are going to the grocery store and getting ripped off. It's about people who are paying cellphone bills and Internet fees that are among the highest in the world, and knowing that Canadians need some relief. This bill is about protecting people, protecting consumers and putting in stiffer penalties.
While I agree we've been able to push for amendments that have addressed a number of changes, including the ability of the Competition Bureau to investigate examples of anti-competitive behaviour, including stiffer penalties when there is anti-competitive behaviour, the piece that's missing is a piece that I spoke about. It is when we look at one of the most glaring examples of large corporations ripping off Canadians, it's when they colluded or worked together to jack up the price of bread. That is termed “price-fixing”. It could also be referred to as a "conspiracy". It's also referred to as "collusion". That behaviour, when large corporations work together to rip off Canadians, that specific area was not addressed by the Liberals. We had pushed for changes. Those changes were not accepted.
What we've included in my bill is addressing the specific matter that I pointed out—that in one of the most egregious examples of collusion, bread price-fixing, the highest penalty was $50 million on Canada Bread Company. That $50 million is barely a slap on the wrist for that corporation, given the total amount of revenue that all partners in that collusion were able to accrue. The amount that they ripped off Canadians was tallied at $5 billion.
What my bill does is provide guidelines to a judge that in a case as severe as that, here are some areas where they can go. They can go to 10% of the revenue of a company. You can go to triple the benefit they accrued. That is severe deterrence. Those are severe penalties that would deter these companies from ripping people off. That's the specific measure.
The other measure that I've included is in the case where a merger would result in 60% or more of a market share. In that case, it should be immediately banned.
11:40 a.m.
NDP
Jagmeet Singh NDP Burnaby South, BC
The third area that's missing is strengthening penalties for agreements or arrangements between federal financial institutions to a fine of $25 million, to match the existing provisions where it applies to criminal cartel penalties. This again is another way of capturing the idea of collusion or working together. These are arrangements in which large corporations co-operate to rip off Canadians, and so to make the fine in line with what we would impose on a criminal cartel, we're saying that it should be a crime to rip off Canadians, and if there's a crime, corporations should pay the fine. That's what this bill is really about—making sure companies are not ripping off Canadians and that CEO greed doesn't take precedence over Canadians' need. That's what we're doing in this bill.