Evidence of meeting #128 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was sdtc.
A recording is available from Parliament.
8:20 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
I know her resumé. We know it well. You can look it up on LinkedIn. I don't need your recitation in defence of her resumé.
I want your explanation of why you put Andrée-Lise Méthot, who had $100 million already from this fund of taxpayer money, on the board so she could steal another $50 million of taxpayer money. Why did you do it?
8:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound
Mr. Perkins, that's all the time you had. Please let the witness answer.
Mr. Bains, the floor is yours.
8:20 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound
Thank you, Mr. Bains.
Mr. Turnbull, the floor is yours for five minutes.
8:20 p.m.
Liberal
Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON
Thank you to all of the witnesses for being here today.
I want to ask Mr. Noseworthy a question.
Maybe I'll start by saying that SDTC is an arm's-length organization that was around for 20 years or so. I understand that this means that the federal minister, his office at the time and the department wouldn't have been intimately involved in the day-to-day operations of the organization. Because it's arm's-length, it was running under a contribution agreement, but I understand that there's some involvement in terms of reporting requirements, etc.
Mr. Noseworthy, I note that, in the report—I think it's page 18 of the Auditor General's report—there's mention in paragraph 6.52 that the foundation did not report to the department on about 91 conflicts of interest. That's documented in the report quite well.
When I'm thinking about this, I'm thinking, okay, how do we make sure that some of these governance issues never come up again as we move forward with a new governance model for SDTC? The minister has already announced that we intend to fold it into the NRC.
I wondered if you could just comment on how we ensure that we put more onus on the organization in the future and the people who will be involved in making future decisions so that this breakdown of communications doesn't happen again.
8:20 p.m.
Former Assistant Deputy Minister on Clean Technologies, As an Individual
Sir, my personal view is that the solution to that challenge would be to bring the funding more directly within the ambit of government, where the checks and balances and administrative responsibilities of government can fully come into play in the oversight of funds.
In my perspective, foundations like SDTC are strange animals from a governance perspective. From one side, you want them to be independent. From the other side, there's an expectation of accountability back to government on the funds that they spend. There is always a balance between those two issues, and things will get confused.
On that basis, my personal view, sir, would be that the cleaner, clearer way to participate in funding by government in future decisions on issues like this is more directly.
8:25 p.m.
Liberal
Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON
Thank you for that. I think that might be informative for us moving forward coming out of this committee proceeding.
I want to go back to Ms. Dubé-Côté and ask how big the potential market for clean tech is in Canada. Do we know how much potential there is for growth? As we've heard before, I think you were clear that SDTC plays a pretty important role. Mr. McArthur was pretty clear on the need for that high-risk capital and seed funding as well, but I think there are a few different categories.
Ms. Dubé-Côté, could you speak to market size in the different areas?
8:25 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Écotech Québec, Canada Cleantech Alliance
The potential market size is probably humongous. Clean technologies are there to replace more traditional technologies that are less efficient and have a negative impact on the environment. Any technology that is currently used in the country that could be replaced by clean technology represents the market.
8:25 p.m.
Liberal
Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON
The market sounds like it's very, very large.
Mr. McArthur, do you have any answer to that, given your position?
8:25 p.m.
Chairman of the Board, Ontario Clean Technology Industry Association, Canada Cleantech Alliance
I have a couple numbers for you. It's been estimated that, for Canada to get to net zero, which is one of our objectives if we want to have a livable planet, it's going to take Canada $2 trillion. For the globe, it's $197 trillion. Now, we can sell to that $197-trillion market as well as to the $2-trillion market in Canada. As Isabelle was saying, the market potential is huge.
8:25 p.m.
Liberal
8:25 p.m.
Chairman of the Board, Ontario Clean Technology Industry Association, Canada Cleantech Alliance
It's estimated it will take $197 trillion of investment for this planet to operate.
8:25 p.m.
Liberal
Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON
Right, and that's to get to net zero by 2050. Is that a total number by then?
8:25 p.m.
Chairman of the Board, Ontario Clean Technology Industry Association, Canada Cleantech Alliance
There's a range of numbers, but that's one of the numbers I've read.
8:25 p.m.
Liberal
Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON
The market size, though, is what I was getting at. You were saying that that's the investment capital that would be needed. In terms of growth potential for the market, it must be a lot bigger than the capital going into it, would it not?
8:25 p.m.
Chairman of the Board, Ontario Clean Technology Industry Association, Canada Cleantech Alliance
The spin-off business would be incredible. To deploy $197 trillion would be phenomenally difficult to do, but these are mammoth opportunities.
8:25 p.m.
Liberal
Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON
I guess a point on this is that it seems to me that, in various ways, the Government of Canada has played a role in this particular market to get to net zero because it's in the public interest, and we're de-risking capital in various ways. Would you agree that that's necessary in this particular case? It sounded like, when you talked about the capital intensity and the risk involved in these clean-tech businesses, that it is capital intensive and it is risky, so it might be a role that the Government of Canada has to continue to play. Could you speak to that?
8:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound
Excuse me, Mr. Turnbull, but give a brief answer as we're running out of time.
8:25 p.m.
Chairman of the Board, Ontario Clean Technology Industry Association, Canada Cleantech Alliance
There's certainly a role to be played to get us there. You know, government funding and other sources of capital are going to be needed for us to get that $2 trillion to get Canada to net zero.
8:25 p.m.
Liberal
8:25 p.m.
Rich Perkins
I have a point of order.
8:25 p.m.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Given the testimony today and the Auditor General's report this week on the green slush fund, I think it is incumbent on this committee to call the current deputy minister, assistant deputy minister and CFO of the industry department, known as ISED, to answer for the Auditor General's report.