Industry Committee on June 5th, 2024

[Navdeep Bains]

What I'm trying to say, through you, Chair, to the parliamentarian, is that the legislation—

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

There were none.

[Navdeep Bains]

—that the House passed in 2001 clearly provides a mandate for SDTC and how it should govern itself.

[Jean-Denis Garon, Bloc, Mirabel, QC]

There were zero audits, Mr. Bains.

[Navdeep Bains]

We should abide by those rules.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you very much.

Colleagues, it is important to let the witnesses respond. Thank you.

Mr. Masse, you have the floor.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

We wouldn't be here if it weren't for the SDTC employees who were whistle-blowers—who did this work. They had to live with their families as they went through having their reputations dragged through the mud, being publicly maligned and humiliated by SDTC spokespeople, not being backed up by the minister with regard to the allegations, having to live through the Raymond Chabot Grant Thornton report that tried to dismiss them, then the release of the Osler report, which proved them to be correct. They had to live through not having a union. They had to live through losing salaries, pensions and benefits. They had to live through putting non-disclosure agreements together. They had to live through the corrupt board of directors that intimidated them individually.

We have two sets of witnesses here today. In my opinion, the first set wants to cover their asses, and the second set wants the public spigot to be turned on. Nobody has raised the issue of workers, in going forward on this. I am absolutely, utterly disgusted. This Auditor General's report would not even have been done but for those workers. I have emails from those workers, some of whom had to leave their positions during a pandemic, with no job, because of the culture of intimidation and fear that was set there. We're supposed to somehow set things up because we can magically find proper board members right now who don't get the benefit of being assigned to a type of accountability that hasn't been done. At the same time, nobody really cares about them. All the resources and time.... Tomorrow it will be in the House of Commons, as well, but nobody can talk about them and their families. Nobody can talk about how we go forward to protect them more.

That's one thing I've been asking for repeatedly. If any of the witnesses here have followed the testimony, they would know I have brought this up multiple times.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

I have a point of order, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

I'm sorry, Mr. Masse. Wait one second.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

I don't mean to interrupt. I know Mr. Masse is on a roll here, but I want to ask him to stop yelling, because I know the interpreters are sensitive to that. There are injuries that can happen. I know he's very passionate. I get that, but maybe he can either sit back from the microphone or stop yelling, in order to protect our interpreters.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you, Mr. Turnbull.

I was just about to tell the clerk that, if there are issues for the interpreters with the members' or witnesses' volume levels, she should make sure to let me know and I'll intervene. I note this.

You may continue, Mr. Masse.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you.

I'll let my record on supporting workers and labour stand versus the parliamentary secretary's any day of the week.

I could tell you that, on top of what's taking place....

What does he think is funny? He's been smirking the entire time I've talked here. Maybe that's why I raised my voice. It's because he sat there smirking through my raising the issue of workers.

That's an issue I want to raise now with Mr. McArthur.

What in particular have your organizations and companies done to help the workers who have come forward? You haven't mentioned, in your five recommendations, anything for them.

Have any of the companies that have been receiving SDTC funding, or any other groups and organizations, Mr. Khan, come together and said, “We should do something for the workers and their families”? I didn't hear any of that.

Has any of that been discussed? Have you heard of that, or are you just restarting everything and letting the actions that have taken place...? People have lost jobs and reputations, or are now clinging to employment as they have to go to another agency.

[Peter McArthur]

Thank you for your question.

I would say that we're here representing the Canadian clean-tech sector. We're trying to represent the workers who are in those companies in your riding and other people's ridings. They are being impacted by the lack of funding or funding that's been frozen, which has interrupted those companies.

Obviously, we're very empathetic regarding the situation the workers at SDTC went through. Some of them are friends.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

You know, you're not doing a good job of that, because the workers whom you say you're representing right now.... The only reason they're not getting more projects or movement right now is that there was a corrupt environment while everybody stood by and watched. Nobody in this process has offered any solutions of importance related to this matter, publicly or elsewhere. I've checked for that. If you want the workers you represent.... Maybe your organizations can show some support for the workers who actually came forward.

To Mr. Bains, it's good to see you. It's been a long time.

I want to go to this issue with you. Can you explain whether, during the process, you received any directive with regard to workers' rights, or with selecting board members that have experience dealing with issues like ethics and so forth? There seems to be a series of issues here. Was there any direction given to that process? Obviously, we cannot undo a lot of the things that have taken place now. However, do you have any recommendations or remorse with regard to the board selection that led to the abuse of employees?

Lastly, these employees, at least, will now be part of a group at NRC. However, they didn't have that protection. Do you have any recommendations about things you would have done differently to protect workers who are susceptible under political appointments?

[Navdeep Bains]

It's great to see you virtually. I think the last time I was in committee was in 2020. That was the last time we had an interaction at the committee here at INDU.

You raise a good point. I would say, with respect to the process, that it was open to everyone, Mr. Masse. It was listed on the website. Any individual who wanted to apply for this role could do so.

I'm hoping that people take this opportunity to recognize that these are public processes, and individuals are encouraged to apply. It's open to everyone. We want people from different experiences, as you mentioned, from labour and all different aspects, to be included in this process.

I want to thank you for highlighting that.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Do you remember if you had any labour appointees in that process?

[Navdeep Bains]

I don't recall who put up their hand and how many people applied. I do know that it was available and open to everyone and that it was a public process. All appointments are listed on the GIC website.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you very much, Mr. Masse.

Mr. Cooper, you have the floor for five minutes.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This is for you, Mr. Bains. Yesterday, the Auditor General released a damning report that ripped SDTC, or the Liberal green slush fund, to shreds. There was $120 million in taxpayers' dollars that went out the door improperly. There were 186 cases of conflicts of interest. There was $76 million that was funnelled by board members that you appointed to companies they had interests in.

In the face of that damning report, do you stand by the appointments that you made to the SDTC board?

[Navdeep Bains]

I think the process, Mr. Chair—through you to the parliamentarian—was open, fair and transparent. It included the Privy Council Office as well.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

I asked you, Mr. Bains, do you stand by those appointments, yes or no?

[Navdeep Bains]

I stand by the process by which the selections were made. It was an open, fair, transparent and merit-based process.

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

Mr. Bains, you appointed board members who then rigged the system to funnel money, $76 million, to pad their own pockets instead of investing SDTC funds in legitimate investments.

In the face of the damning Auditor General's report, am I to take it you have no regrets, no remorse, and that you accept no responsibility?

[Navdeep Bains]

No, what I am saying is that the process that occurred in selecting the individuals for Sustainable Development Technology Canada was followed for all of the appointments that I made for Governor in Council appointments. That means it's an open process, it's a process—

[Michael Cooper, Conservative, St. Albert—Edmonton, AB]

In other words, no, you take no responsibility. That's what I take from your answer.

Now that you've made it clear that you have no regrets and that you don't take any responsibility, that speaks, frankly, to the rot and corruption of this government.

I want to ask you a little bit about the decisions around appointments to the SDTC board.

Did you make those decisions on your own? I understand that there's a process, but, at the end of the day, did you make the final call?