Evidence of meeting #137 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was telesat.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Francis Bilodeau  Acting Deputy Minister, Department of Industry
Benoit Tessier  Director General, Automotive, Transportation, Digital and Industry Skills Branch, Department of Industry
Mary Gregory  Associate Assistant Deputy Minister, Industry Sector, Department of Industry

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 137 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Industry and Technology.

Before we begin, I would like to ask all participants to consult the small card and take note of the guidelines for the use of earpieces and microphones. This is about the health and safety of everyone, especially our interpreters.

Pursuant to the motion adopted on Thursday, September 19, 2024, we are pleased to welcome the Honourable François‑Philippe Champagne, Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry, to discuss his mandate.

Welcome, Minister. It's good to see you again.

The minister is accompanied today by officials from the Department of Industry: Francis Bilodeau, acting deputy minister; Mary Gregory, associate assistant deputy minister, industry sector; and Benoit Tessier, director general, automotive, transportation, digital and industrial skills branch.

Minister, you know the drill. You will have five minutes, but we will be generous with the time allotted for your opening remarks. We will then move on to the question period.

Without further ado, you have the floor.

8:15 a.m.

Saint-Maurice—Champlain Québec

Liberal

François-Philippe Champagne LiberalMinister of Innovation

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you for welcoming me to your committee.

I would also like to thank Mary Gregory, Francis Bilodeau and Benoit Tessier for the work they do in the department.

Mr. Chair and members of the committee, it is a great pleasure for me to appear before you today. As always, I am honoured to appear before you, as the work of this committee contributes significantly to Canada's industrial and technological future.

I am pleased to be able to report today on the progress we have made together so far to achieve the many objectives of the mandate given to me by the Prime Minister .

You will recall that when the Prime Minister asked me to take on the duties of Minister of Innovation, Science and Industry in 2021, I knew that this was a major challenge, at a time when our economy was in the midst of a radical transformation. I accepted the challenge with enthusiasm, knowing that we could seize generational opportunities in the economy of the future, i.e., a digital and decarbonized economy.

Our work is mostly aimed at fostering an innovation ecosystem that allows us to move from an idea to developing a concept and then a product. We are working to establish an ecosystem that puts Canada at the forefront and able to seize generational opportunities in the 21st century economy.

I have said it before and I will say it again here: we have everything we need to succeed in the 21st century. We have the talent; we have strong ecosystems, from aerospace to biomanufacturing to energy; we have the critical minerals to make not only 21st century batteries but also semiconductors; we have ample renewable energy; and, finally, we have access to most of the world's major markets with over 1.5 billion consumers, which puts Canada in a very advantageous position.

As you've seen recently, Canada has attracted what I would call a “historic” investment from Dow Chemical in Fort Saskatchewan, Alberta. Then there is Volkswagen and Honda, who will be investing $19 billion in St. Thomas and elsewhere in Ontario. This is the largest private investment in Canadian history.

We are keenly aware that Canada's innovation ecosystem must be world class to ensure our long-term prosperity. That's why, as you've seen, we've invested, more than any government in Canadian history, in various initiatives related to research and science.

For example, we have added more than 1,000 new Canada research chairs, increased funding for the granting councils and provided better support for early‑career researchers. We have also implemented national strategies that are bearing fruit today. These are national strategies for artificial intelligence, quantum technology and, of course, life sciences, which have enabled us to position Canada at the forefront of the major technological advances of the world.

These strategies will inform our collective decision-making as a society and help us make scientific advances in these new strategic areas while maximizing economic benefits across the country.

Innovation is at the heart of a cleaner, greener economy, and we also know that, in this area, transportation will be a key factor. That is why we are going to step up our efforts to support the transition to electric vehicles and build a battery industry supply chain that is second to none in this country.

I am pleased to note, as you well know, that Bloomberg now ranks Canada as the number one country in the global EV supply chain, which in 2023 enabled us to attract over $40 billion dollars' worth of investments in the automotive industry of tomorrow. That means that we have ensured the prosperity and work of hundreds of thousands of auto industry workers for generations to come.

I would also like to draw the committee's attention to the progress we have made together on modernizing the legislative framework for foreign investment. I think this is an important milestone, and I want to thank all members of the committee for their work on this.

There's also the Competition Act. I think that over the next few decades, Canadians will see the importance of the work that has been done by the committee in overhauling the Competition Act in this country and updating legislation in the areas of privacy and artificial intelligence data protection, which is still being studied by this committee.

Recent amendments to the Investment Canada Act to improve the transparency and efficiency of the national security review process have, as you know, two objectives.

First, they increase the confidence of Canadian businesses and foreign investors who want to invest in Canada.

Second, they strengthen Canada's ability to act more swiftly and decisively when investments threaten national security. As we know, economic security and national security are one and the same in current times.

Furthermore, the significant amendments to the Competition Act will put an end to anti‑competitive mergers and collaborations that result in less choice for consumers. Of all the work done by your committee, these amendments are probably one of the milestones that people will remember for a long time. We know that we want less concentration, more competition and, obviously, better prices for Canadians.

I recently met with European Commissioner Margrethe Vestager. She said that Canada had succeeded in making the act the foundation for more competition in the Canadian economy.

Finally, we also want to strengthen privacy legislation. To that end, the digital charter implementation act, 2022 aims to maintain Canadians' trust in the handling of personal information in the digital realm. It also creates an important new risk-based framework for AI systems in Canada.

Artificial intelligence is another critically important area which was discussed with French President Emmanuel Macron on his recent visit to Canada.

Later today, I will be talking about it at an important summit taking place in Toronto, the Elevate Festival. As you know, Canada is a leader in responsible AI.

However, the real value of all of these initiatives is to improve the lives of Canadians on a daily basis, from coast to coast to coast. I am thinking of the generations of workers in the auto industry in Windsor—I know this is going to warm the cockles of my friend Brian Masse's heart. These people are going to build the electric vehicles of tomorrow.

I'm also thinking of farmers in Saskatchewan who are going to use artificial intelligence to improve their crop yields while reducing their water consumption. Then there are the researchers in Quebec who will develop new therapies to protect the public and improve the quality of life of our seniors.

In closing, innovation is the way forward in a rapidly changing global environment. Thanks to the dedication of our team, the important contributions of this committee, the innovative spirit of researchers and the Canadian public, I am confident that we will be able to meet the challenges of the 21st century and position Canada as a leader. I always say that it is thanks to the talent, expertise and excellence of our workers that we are able to attract investments like the ones we have seen.

Mr. Chair, thank you for your time this morning. I am able to stay for a little while and I will be pleased to answer my colleagues' questions.

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Thank you, Minister.

Let's get the ball rolling. I shall give the floor to my colleague Mr. Perkins for six minutes.

8:20 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Minister, for coming. It's always a pleasure to have you here.

It'll be a lot easier today. I know how enthusiastic you are, but if you can actually try to answer our questions, it would be more helpful for everyone, including the translators.

Telesat, which you know is majority-owned by U.S. investors, is a company that your Liberal government has spent over $5 billion on since 2019 to try to connect rural and remote Canadians to the Internet with low-earth orbit satellites. There's only one small problem: It doesn't have a satellite network that connects anyone to the Internet.

In 2021, six months after you became minister, you gave $1.4 billion of taxpayer money to Telesat, a large portion of which was a loan—a very big loan. How much of that loan has been paid back? Just give the number, please.

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

I'm very proud of the work of Telesat and of the workers at Telesat, I must say. Telesat is a Canadian company. We're proud of what they're doing.

I can assure you that the investments.... I would say, Mr. Perkins, just to be clear, that we're making money out of these loans. We have a return on the investments that we have invested in—

8:25 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Minister, how much of that...? I have limited time.

With respect, Minister, I just asked for a—

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Do you want me to answer or not? I don't know.

8:25 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

You haven't answered. I asked one simple question, not for an explanation of what Telesat does.

I asked a question. That question is quite simple. Give a simple answer.

How much of the $1.4 billion investment and loan—the loan was almost an $800-million part of it—has been paid back since 2021?

Just give the number or the percentage. You can do either one.

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Let's be clear. It's your privilege, Mr. Perkins, to ask the question. It's my privilege to answer.

8:25 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

I would like you to answer.

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

My answer to you is that I am proud of what Telesat is doing. I am proud of the loan that we have granted them to have a large constellation—about 198 satellites—that will offer coverage to Canadians. Importantly, for our national—

8:25 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

I didn't ask about that.

With respect, Minister—

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Sir, if you're going to interrupt me every time I try to answer your question, then it's not going to go well today for you.

8:25 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Mr. Chair.

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Yes, Mr. Perkins.

Minister, please try to be succinct in your answers and to the point.

Mr. Perkins.

8:25 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

I will come to your latest announcement. I asked about the $1.4 billion, so the answer, obviously, is that zero has been paid back.

You also had, at that time, in 2021, $650 million allocated for equity as well as for warrants. How much taxpayer money have you spent right now in warrants on that 2021 option?

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Listen, I'm happy to get back to you with the specifics, but what I think Canadians are concerned about is making sure that we have, for national security reasons, a very broad coverage when it comes to telecom in the Arctic. I can tell you that the LEO satellites—the low-earth orbit satellites—that are going to be put in orbit by Telesat are going to be key for NORAD modernization and in enabling NATO allies to protect the Arctic and the north.

I would say, Mr. Perkins, that using the federal government balance sheet in order to support Canadian companies is a smart way to do things, because, in this case, in the loan we have provided, we're actually making money. We're making money, because we borrow at a lower rate than we lend the money. Therefore, Canadians will be making money while protecting national security, and it will ensure that there will be coverage in the north and the Arctic.

8:25 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Let's talk about that $2.1-billion loan that you just announced on September 13. It's a 15-year loan that gives interest relief, essentially, with no interest payments for the first five years. At the rate that you set in the contract of 4.7% plus the overnight repo rate, that's about a 10% interest rate at current rates. That's over $1 billion of interest in the first five years that you're forgiving to Telesat, and you said you'll get goods in kind. What goods in kind are you getting for $1 billion?

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

We're getting satellite coverage to protect our national security, sir. I would say that we're making money. That's why I think Canadians.... There are a lot of people watching at home—

8:25 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

You're not making money if you're forgiving the interest.

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

Sir, if you allow me to—

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Mr. Perkins, please let the minister answer.

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

You're making a statement; I'm telling you facts. That's the difference between you and me.

8:25 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

I read the loan agreement. I don't know if you did. The loan agreement has interest relief for the first five years.

François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC

It's math 101, sir.