Evidence of meeting #137 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was telesat.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound
Thank you, Minister
Thank you, Mr. Masse.
It's over to Ms. Rempel Garner. Please go ahead.
Conservative
Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB
Minister, your government has given billions of tax dollars to Telesat, a low-earth satellite Internet company that has no low-earth satellite Internet network and connects no one to the Internet. You said that the reason you gave a satellite Internet company that has no satellite network and connects no one to the Internet billions of tax dollars since 2019 is because it promised to connect Canadians to the Internet in 2024. It's 2024. Is it fair to say that zero Canadians are connected to the Internet via Telesat Lightspeed?
Liberal
François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Well, Ms. Rempel, it's a delight to be in front of you this morning.
For the folks watching at home, because there are many, I just want to say that we have not “given”.... We've provided loans. Canadians understand the difference between a grant and a loan. A loan you make money on. We're making money on the loan we've provided to Telesat, which is really what Canadians.... They're making money on that.
Conservative
Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB
Thanks, but you've given billions of dollars, so it's fair to say that you gave money to a satellite company that doesn't have a satellite network to connect people to the Internet and zero people are connected to the Internet with those billions of dollars. It's zero, isn't it? That's the number of people who are connected, after billions of dollars.
Liberal
François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
If you look at the evolution of LEO satellites in the world, you will see that you first need to raise the money so that you put them in orbit. Then you provide connection. It's the same thing, by the way, with all the American firms that did that with federal funding.
What we're saying is that we're using our balance sheet by giving a loan. We're not “giving” it. We're lending money, so we're making money on that to provide the network, so that we can connect people.
Conservative
Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB
It's a great point, though, because you say that you've “loaned” it money. You loaned it money in 2021, and again, it had no satellite network. It said that it would connect people to the Internet by 2024—about 40,000 people, I think—but no people are connected to the Internet. You just gave it $2 billion more.
I mean, call me crazy, but why would you give more money to a satellite Internet company that doesn't have a satellite network to connect people to the Internet when it hasn't connected people to the Internet?
Liberal
François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Well, it's very, very simple. First of all, giving and lending are different. Canadians know this, because they pay interest on loans. In this case, the Government of Canada didn't give anything. We loaned money; we make money. The Government of Canada makes money.
The way you do it is that first you lend money to a company. It's the same thing in the United States, by the way. I can go to all the companies that have launched satellites if you want. I'm happy to do that.
Conservative
Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB
No, no, no. I just have to say, you have a great pitch.
Liberal
François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
You put the satellite, and then you provide communication. That's how it works.
Conservative
Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB
Then it's like you're giving people tax dollars to make money, yet the company doesn't have satellites and doesn't sell Internet to Canadians, so how would it pay it back?
Conservative
Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB
No, no, no, it's okay. I want to go back. How many people are connected to the Internet today, after all of these billions of dollars? It's zero; isn't that right?
Liberal
François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Let me start that back.... It's very simple. You lend money, so the government makes money. You lend money to a company. The company puts the satellite in orbit, and then you provide communication.
Conservative
Liberal
François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
It's exactly what happened in the United States. The alternative is to outsource that to foreign firms. Canadians don't want to outsource their national security, so that's why we're going to be doing exactly that.
Conservative
Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB
That's a great point; it's a foreign firm. This company that you gave billions to is 36% owned by an American fund. Actually, according to American filings, American investment funds own about 63% of it. The board chair is American. Is that what you define as Canadian?
Now you're paying an American fund that doesn't have satellites to deliver Internet services, and it hasn't connected anyone to the Internet. You bought its pitch, because you're giving me its pitch. You just gave it more money, and it hasn't connected anybody to the Internet.
Liberal
François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Listen, I love that discussion.
I guess, Mr. Chair, maybe we can have experts come here to explain a loan and a grant. They're kind of different things.
The Government of Canada did not give anything. The Government of Canada is making money from a company because you use your balance sheet by borrowing at a lower rate and lending at a higher rate. Canadians are making money—
Conservative
Liberal
François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
—and we're going to be making two satellites per day in Canada. The largest satellite factory in the world is going to be in this country. You should be celebrating Canadian innovation, Canadian manufacturing, Canadian workers. We're going to lead the world.
Conservative
Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB
However, you're not concerned about giving money to a company that has launched no satellites after five years and has connected no one to the Internet. This suggests that it can't make any profit to pay back the loan, but I digress.
Part of this loan.... You're actually giving money to Elon Musk's company, SpaceX, to launch these non-existent satellites. Why are you okay with giving Elon Musk's company all of these millions of dollars but not allowing or encouraging Canadians to access existing satellite services with other companies? It's all going to American companies. I mean, God bless America, but you—
Liberal
François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
I'm trying find.... I happen to know that you criticized me at the time with Elon, but now you're criticizing me for favouring a Canadian company, so—
Conservative
Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB
No, no, I'm just saying what you said in the media.
Liberal
François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
—I'm criticized on both sides now. I'm just trying to get it.
Conservative
Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB
No, no, no, you're going on both sides here.
I'm just trying to clarify. You're giving billions of dollars to a company that doesn't have satellites and has connected no one to the Internet, because it's a Canadian company. However, it's owned by Americans, and it's launching satellites it doesn't have with Elon Musk's company. This is a good deal for Canadians, is it?
Liberal
François-Philippe Champagne Liberal Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC
Listen, I love that discussion, sir. Do I have time to answer, Mr. Chair?