Industry Committee on March 29th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Good afternoon to all.

I see that all members are present. I therefore call the meeting to order.

First of all, I'd like to apologize to the witnesses. We are starting the meeting nine minutes late because of a vote in the House.

Welcome to the fourteenth meeting of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Industry and Technology.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted by the committee on Tuesday, March 1, 2022, the committee is meeting to study quantum computing.

Today’s meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the House order of November 25, 2021. Members may attend in person or by Zoom. Those who are attending in person know the public health rules in place, so I am asking them to behave accordingly.

Today we are pleased to welcome Dr. Raymond Laflamme, professor of physics, Canada Research Chair in Quantum Computing at the University of Waterloo.

We also welcome Dr. Alireza Yazdi, chief executive director of Anyon Systems, Dr. Philippe St‑Jean, chief executive officer of Nord Quantique, and Mr. Rafal Janik, head of product at Xanadu Quantum Technologies.

Thank you for being with us.

Dr. Laflamme, you have the floor for about six minutes.

[Dr. Raymond Laflamme, Professor of Physics, Canada Research Chair in Quantum Computing, University of Waterloo, As an Individual]

Good afternoon.

I thank the members of the committee for their interest in the field of quantum information and related technologies. I also thank them for inviting me to say a few words on the subject. This committee is really important for the Government of Canada to build on its early success in this area.

On Friday, my colleagues Alexandre Blais, Norbert Lütkenhaus and Barry Sanders gave you an introduction to quantum information. So I won't repeat what they said, because they did an excellent job. However, I would like to emphasize two things that were mentioned on Friday that I think are really important in understanding and situating quantum information and technologies in Canada.

First, the discipline of quantum information is broad. It's about how the universe we live in behaves on a microscopic scale, it's about quantum cryptography in the context of national security, and it's about the development of technologies for extracting natural resources or solving health-related problems, for example. The expertise gained in quantum information could therefore represent an economic benefit in the 21st century.

Second, quantum information initiatives in Canada and elsewhere in the world are really moving at the speed of a marathon, not a sprint. Although the discipline is still young, the race is already on.

Quantum information science and technology is an incredible opportunity for Canada. We have been successful at putting Canada on the international map in the last 20 years, but we cannot sit on our laurels. The late Tom Brzustowski, past president of NSERC, whom I met in the early 2000s and who became one of my mentors, used to quote an American technologist who said again and again that Canada never misses an opportunity to miss an opportunity.

I hope that with quantum we will prove him wrong. This can happen only if there is a team effort. That includes the community, of course, from the government, industry, and academia, but also everybody who is around the table today.

I will now tell you a little about myself. I was born in Quebec City. I did a bachelor's degree at Laval University, a doctorate at Cambridge University under the supervision of Dr. Stephen Hawking, and a Killam postdoctoral fellowship at the University of British Columbia. I returned to Cambridge for two years before spending ten years at Los Alamos National Laboratory in the United States.

In 2001, I was recruited by Dr. David Johnston and Dr. Mike Lazaridis to build the Institute for Quantum Computing in Waterloo, with the support of the Canada Research Chairs and the Canada Foundation for Innovation, or CFI, programs, and to put Canada on the map in this area.

I led the institute until 2017, and that was for 15 years. The goal was to develop a multidisciplinary institute to push the boundaries of science and develop corresponding technologies.

The institute had the goals of becoming a world leader in research in quantum computing, beginning to develop a workforce that understands and can develop quantum technologies and to communicate the science and engineering to a broad audience. The institute, called IQC for short, is one of the pillars of the quantum valley ecosystem that has been built for the last 20 years.

The other partner organizations are the Perimeter Institute, the quantum-nano fabrication facility, the conformative quantum technologies program from the Canada first research excellence fund, the Ideas Lab, which prototypes emerging quantum technologies and, finally, Quantum Valley Investments, which helped commercialize the fund and the start-ups that come out of the research.

I believe that building ecosystems is important to sustain the path from quantum ideas to quantum technologies with societal impact. The path is a long chain with many links, and any broken parts bring challenges to reach the end point. As you heard on Friday, the concept of quantum ecosystems has also been adopted by Sherbrooke and Calgary, and there are hints that Vancouver will also build its own in the near future. I believe that an important role of the national strategy will be to nurture and help develop them.

I have also been the director of the quantum information program at CIFAR, the Canadian Institute for Advanced Research for 15 years. There the goal was to study fundamental aspects of quantum computing. The program brought two dozen of the best researchers in quantum information both in Canada and across the world. The program is still running, and it is a success being led by Aephraim Steinberg.

The quantum community also put together an NSERC network called the nano innovation platform in 2006. The program, Quantum Works, brought industry, government and academic researchers together, and can be thought of as the grandparent of the present national strategy.

I'd like to finish by commenting on points where the national quantum strategy should have some focus. One, de-risk quantum technologies or help to do so; two, be strategic and make choices, as there are many opportunities but the resources are, as usual, limited; three, de-silo our environment to develop a true quantum ecosystem, and we heard that on Friday. Find more ways to facilitate industry, government and academia interaction.

There are already many of these interactions. In fact, my colleagues around the table in the quantum community have some. 1QBit is involved with both Sherbrooke and Waterloo. Anyon Systems are using the Waterloo lab facility. Xanadu has hired many Waterloo grads on its scientific board. Many of these interactions are ad hoc, and strengthening them will increase the chance for Canada to score many goals in the quantum game.

Fourth, develop and maintain the infrastructure to develop quantum technologies, like the fabrication they mention in Waterloo, but there's also one in Sherbrooke and one in Vancouver. Be cognizant and plug the holes in the present funding programs. There needs to be lots of interaction between this national strategy and the community.

Finally, develop talent, including leadership that is cognizant of the field, and by this I mean both in the quantum community itself and on the government side.

It was a surprise when I moved from the U.S. to here to realize that program managers in Canada seem to be a lot more offhand than what I've seen both in the U.S. and in the UK.

I'd like to finish by saying that quantum information science and technology is an incredible opportunity for Canada, and let's capitalize on it.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you very much for your presentation, Dr. Laflamme. It's an honour to have you here. Your background is quite impressive, frankly.

Dr. Yazdi, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Dr. Alireza Yazdi, Chief Executive Director, Anyon Systems Inc.]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman and distinguished members of the committee.

Thank you for inviting me to appear before the committee.

My name is Alireza Yazdi. I am the founder and chief executive director of Anyon Systems. I am a first-generation immigrant, a scientist and an entrepreneur.

I graduated from McGill with a Ph.D. in engineering, so I'm an engineer by training, not a physicist, with all due respect to other physicists on the panel. I have over 15 years of experience in high-performance computing, out of which the last seven years have been almost entirely focused on building a quantum computer.

Besides my technical work and business, I'm also a student of history and geopolitics. In particular, given my day job, I'm very interested in disruptive technological trends that have geopolitical ramifications.

Before I formally introduce Anyon Systems and talk about what we do, I will take a few moments to provide some background and context for the discussion ahead.

There is a saying in the tech industry, that “data is the new gold”. Companies like Google and Facebook compete on mining this gold. They spend vast resources on data collection, indexing and storage, but data becomes really valuable when it is processed, when it is analyzed. As you know, there is an exponential growth of global data volume, and with that, there is an ever-increasing need for computational power. I do not use the phrase “computational power” lightly, and I do not use it in a mere technical context. When I say “computational power”, I mean power to process data, power to develop new technologies, power to make better decisions and power to stay ahead of the competition. This power is strategic in nature.

Given the data volume and the strategic value of the computational power I mentioned, there is an acute need for new technologies, especially new types of hardware, that can expand our ability to process data, explore nature, invent new technologies and keep our nation safe. Quantum computing is one of the candidate technologies that promises significant computational power, but for only a certain class of problems. Please note that not every problem or every application can necessarily be accelerated using quantum computers.

Let me be more clear. A quantum computer is not a stand-alone computer. A quantum computer is a hardware accelerator. Its job is to accelerate performing some computations for a class of problems that are deemed very valuable.

Having covered that background, let me share with you some background about our company. Anyon Systems was founded in 2014, right around the time that Google and IBM started their quantum hardware effort. In fact, despite being barely eight years old, it is one of the oldest quantum computing hardware companies in the world. Our mission is to develop and commercialize logic-based universal quantum computers.

Over the past eight years, Anyon has developed the full vertical hardware stack of superconducting quantum computers. In fact, to my best knowledge, we are the only company in the world that makes all major components of a superconducting quantum computer in house, including the superconducting quantum processor itself, the cryogenics systems, reaching temperatures of only a few millikelvins above absolute zero, the control electronics and the software stack to use the machine.

Developing such unique expertise has enabled us to be largely independent from foreign suppliers and make sure that Canada will have indigenous and domestic capabilities. Our quantum computing systems are almost entirely manufactured and assembled at our facilities here in Montreal and in Waterloo. We have built valuable partnerships with key stakeholders in government and academia, and we strive to help build ecosystems by providing hardware access to Canadian researchers.

In 2020, we received a contract through the build in Canada innovation program to deliver a quantum computer for testing by Defence Research and Development Canada, DRDC. Despite the challenges posed by the COVID-19 pandemic, I'm glad to inform you that the machine was completed and went online in 2021. We are proud to announce that this machine is Canada's first gate-based quantum computer. The key performance metrics exceed those of some of the most well-known actors in the industry, and on many key metrics it is second only to Google.

Last fall, I also had the pleasure of delivering a series of lectures to the talented researchers of DRDC and other government agencies. The goal of this lecture series was to help government researchers adopt quantum computing and start doing great research in the field.

More recently, we received a second order to deliver a state-of-the-art machine to one of Canada's largest high-performance computing centres. This machine will enable Canadian researchers, both in academia and industry, to have early access to a highly sought-after technology, enabling them to further build novel algorithms and perform cutting-edge research.

While we currently deliver small- to intermediate-scale machines that are tailored for early adopters, Anyon's overarching goal is to deliver what we called a utility-scale quantum computer, a quantum computer that provides computational value more than its cost.

Our team has developed a detailed technological road map to that effect, and we have been inventing very novel technologies to reach our milestones.

Before I conclude my remarks, I would be remiss if I did not thank the kind and generous support that we have received over the past few years from the National Research Council of Canada, especially through IRAP; the Institute for Quantum Computing at the University of Waterloo, especially the management and staff of Waterloo's quantum-nano fabrication facility; and the Ministère de l'Économie et de l'Innovation here in Quebec.

Once again, I thank you for this invitation and I look forward to our discussion.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you very much, Mr. Yazdi.

I'll now turn to Mr. St-Jean for six minutes.

[Dr. Philippe St-Jean, Chief Executive Officer, Nord Quantique]

Good afternoon.

I would like to thank the members of the committee for the opportunity to speak with you today.

My name is Philippe St‑Jean, and I am the chief executive officer and co‑founder of Nord Quantique, a company that designs and manufactures an error-tolerant quantum computer. We come from the centre of excellence in quantum technology at the Université de Sherbrooke, the Institut quantique. It's headed by Dr. Alexandre Blais, who appeared before this committee last week.

Several of the witnesses who have presented their views to this committee have already made it clear that Canada has an interest in promoting the development of its expertise in quantum computing. I will therefore focus on the aspects that specifically concern the development of these computers within Canadian companies already engaged in this field.

As mentioned earlier, Canada can be proud of the quality of academic research in quantum computing that is taking place in our centres of excellence. The challenge now is to ensure that this expertise also translates into industrial and commercial success, and thus to establish what should be the federal government's roadmap in this direction.

Our needs can be broken down into two points.

Obviously, we need access to the necessary funds to develop this technology, especially since we are competing with ambitious programs put forward by other governments elsewhere in the world.

More importantly, our future success will depend on the support of the ecosystems surrounding the centres of excellence in quantum technology from which we are emerging. Leased access to state-of-the-art infrastructure and laboratories, the specialized equipment there, the experts who work there and their knowledge, and the young talent who develop there and grow our ranks is key to success. For us, this is the Canadian approach. This collaboration has allowed us to remain competitive despite the considerable private sector investment in our international competitors.

The crucial contribution of these centres of excellence was brilliantly described and highlighted by Dr. Laflamme at a recent conference organized by NanoCanada, Quantum Days. I invite the members of the committee to watch or rewatch this presentation.

Let's face facts about the Canadian commercial quantum sector. We all have a difficult road ahead of us. All companies developing quantum computers are facing a dry spell in which they must develop the technology without being able to sustain the effort with sufficient short-term revenues. It is therefore critical that the government act and help us, either directly as a first user of the prototype computers we are developing, or as an intermediary by facilitating its access to the early user and scientific community in Canada.

It is also important that this support be effective and agile. Unfortunately, the constraints of existing programs can sometimes create excessive delays.

The risk, for example, is that in the time between the submission of a good project, its evaluation, its approval and access to funds, the project itself may have lost relevance, as things move very fast in this sector.

The scale at which these projects are funded should be comparable to that enjoyed by our international competitors in their respective countries.

Finally, we also need to help change the mindset of Canadian private investors so that they understand that they have everything to gain by placing part of their investments into longer-term breakthrough technologies. That's how we need to think.

I'd like to end on an optimistic note. Last week, Dr. Alexandre Blais emphasized to this committee the importance of managing expectations, noting that we cannot do everything in Canada and that we must therefore focus our efforts intelligently. For us, this means that it is important to support our centres of excellence, but above all to foster the development of ecosystems around these centres, which in turn provide fertile ground for emerging Canadian companies in the quantum sector.

I want to emphasize one important point. This management of expectations does not mean that Canada is limited to a background or ancillary role in the development of the first error-tolerant commercial quantum computers. Canada is truly in this race and is in a very good position. Based on the current situation and status, we can confidently say that the first commercially viable quantum computers will emerge in two countries, Canada and the United States. For this scenario to become a reality, we must act now to support this transition from scientific research to the industrial and commercial development of this technology.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you very much, Dr. St‑Jean.

Mr. Janik, you now have the floor for six minutes.

[Rafal Janik, Head of Product, Xanadu Quantum Technologies Inc.]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I would like to thank the committee for inviting me here and for giving me the opportunity to speak on what is a very important topic, namely, how do we keep the strategic lead we have in quantum technologies here in Canada into the future?

I and my colleagues, many of whom have spoken to the committee already, have really addressed the fact that we've enjoyed close to 25 years now of really fantastic support and funding across quantum sciences and quantum information, and now even through the commercialization of quantum technologies. The end goal of this has really been identified as building and developing a large-scale quantum computer. We've heard a couple of different names for this economically viable quantum computer, but really what we're referring to is a quantum computer with millions of physical qubits, a technology that can solve the world's most challenging problems. This is the goal of many other people that you may have heard from already.

Xanadu is on this path. Our mission is to build fault-tolerant universal quantum computers. We are now a six-year-old company based in the heart of Toronto, with over 120 employees working on this mission. The majority of us are focused on building the fundamental photonic hardware to deliver this quantum computer, but we also work on the software stack, which is really important in making sure we get full adoption of this technology as it becomes viable.

To date, we have stood up online seven unique quantum computers across 15 different quantum processing unit generations. We've gone through 15 different manufacturing cycles with partners across the world. All of this is developed directly in our Toronto facility, which is the world's most advanced nano-photonics facility.

Approximately every six months, we are doubling the qubit count, increasing exponentially the computational power of a quantum computer, but it is important to note that these quantum computers are still far away from delivering on that true economic value. We believe the photonics platform has a unique opportunity here over some other approaches to be able to do this, but of course the jury is still out, and we do not believe this will be a winner-take-all scenario.

The reason that photonics represents such a unique opportunity for quantum technologies is that it's already a technology that is well understood in our telecommunications and data communications world. The chips that we develop are easily manufacturable at scale, which is one of the things you will need to develop a large-scale, fault-tolerant quantum computer.

They also operate at room temperature. Ninety per cent of our current system operates at 20°C, which means you're able to iterate and develop a lot faster and more cheaply. Not unique to us, but definitely with my colleagues at Nord Quantique, different architectures provide unique opportunities for some of the biggest challenges in correcting errors and ensuring that quantum computers are fault-tolerant.

With all of this put together, I will maybe highlight for the committee that there are many different approaches to building a quantum computer. Each comes with its own advantages and disadvantages. I'd also like to mention that we have one of the leading software platforms out there, in PennyLane. This is an open-source, general-purpose quantum computing tool that is competing right now on par with those from IBM, with Qiskit, and from Google, with SIRC.

Our approach is a bit different. We've taken a fully community open-source approach. Not only do we have corporate partners that are co-developing this tool with us; we also have academics across Canada and across the world. As of this year, it's also become fundamental coursework across a few universities. We're working with the Quantum Algorithms Institute in British Columbia to also ensure that they'll be able to provide further training and resources for the workforce as we continue to build it.

There's one final thing I'd like to point out about our core approach to building a quantum computer. As it is based on photonics, it also offers unique opportunities for quantum sensing and quantum communication. Today we have a test bed network that's been deployed for quantum communication and quantum key distribution here in our lab in Toronto. We've also been developing quantum sensing solutions for the National Research Council through the Innovative Solutions Canada project.

With that, I'd like to thank the committee one more time. I'd be pleased to answer any questions the committee may have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you very much, Mr. Janik.

We'll now go to the first round of questions.

Mr. Deltell, you have the floor for six minutes.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Good afternoon, colleagues.

I thank all the witnesses for taking part in this discussion. It is very impressive to have so many talented people come before the committee. It's a privilege for us as parliamentarians, and it's a gift to all Canadians.

I have a couple of issues to address: choices, labs and funding. I'll talk about the choices right away.

Dr. Laflamme, first of all, I would like to greet you as a citizen of Quebec City. It is always nice to have colleagues from the same part of the country. You mentioned earlier that Canada had to make choices and that it was impossible to do everything.

In your opinion, what sectors should we prioritize in the immediate future?

[Dr. Raymond Laflamme]

In my opinion, among the various choices Canada can make, the stimulation of quantum ecosystems in the country should be the priority.

There are different ways of giving funds to organizations, but it must be done in a holistic way. You have to make sure you cover all the links, from basic science to commercialization. You need a group of people to make sure that all the links are connected and that none are broken.

I think this is a natural choice, as ecosystems are already emerging in many parts of Canada. All Canadian companies that turn to quantum information can benefit from these ecosystems.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you very much, Dr. Laflamme.

I will now ask the same question of Dr. St‑Jean.

Dr. St‑Jean, you said that you have already targeted certain sectors that are more promising than others.

Canada can't do everything, but in your experience, what are the essential choices that Canada must make to be able to compete in the world?

[Dr. Philippe St-Jean]

The emerging companies that are dedicated to quantum computing and that are trying to design and build a quantum computer need financial resources, but also the support of an ecosystem. You have to understand that it's not easy to build a quantum computer. It is a very difficult task for these companies.

This is in contrast to what we see in other sectors, such as artificial intelligence, or the software-as-a-service model, or SaaS. One can imagine many emerging companies in these areas starting their business in a garage. However, the same is not at all possible in quantum computing.

You need access to this expertise. There is no doubt that we benefit from our strategic positioning in the Sherbrooke ecosystem. We need the expertise of the Institut quantique at the Université de Sherbrooke.

We are looking at three poles. At present, we are conducting activities at the Institut quantique at the Université de Sherbrooke. Our processors are manufactured at the Institut interdisciplinaire d'innovation technologique, which does microelectronics prototyping. This institute, which is not very far from here, is attached to the Université de Sherbrooke. We are also thinking of eventually using the facilities at the MiQro Innovation Collaboration Center, or C2MI, in Bromont, which provides prototyping tools, but of an industrial nature. This would allow us to have industrial quality tools.

This access is essential for us. This is how we operate at present and it allows us to move forward. It is obvious that we could not fund this infrastructure ourselves. We are happy to rent this equipment and contribute our expertise to this community. If we didn't have this whole ecosystem supporting us, I don't see how we could do it.

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

I like your reference to the garage. Everyone knows the very romantic story of Apple, a company that was born in a garage in Silicon Valley. That's where the first Apple computer was made. You're telling me that the same is true of Amazon. I'm going to have to broaden my knowledge. We're all going to have to buy a garage to create something. Anyway, we understand that you need equipment.

Dr. Yazdi, your company is one of the oldest, if I may say so. What equipment do you need in this area?

You know better than I do that today's equipment will be outdated in two years. What investments do you need to make, and how much funding do you need to get the necessary equipment to conduct research in your private company?

[Dr. Alireza Yazdi]

Is the question for me?

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

My question is for you, Mr. Yazdi. As your business has been established for many years, I was wondering what kind of equipment you needed. What was the hardware you needed to develop your business, your company? How much did you have to invest? What kind of role could the private sector play in your business?

[Dr. Alireza Yazdi]

I think the part that any company right now in Canada would need, especially if they wanted to look into the launch of field of quantum computing, is access to fab. I remember Mr. Dong's questions on Friday about CMOS. This is a great example of the types of capabilities we have to have in Canada. Unfortunately, after the fall of Nortel we lost that capability. We have to rebuild that type of capability, not only for CMOS, but also for quantum. This is the part where we actually could be a leader in the world. We already have the infrastructure in the sense that we have the talent.

Also, I have to point out that the generations who were working at Nortel, who had so many years of experience working in an industrial setting, are close to retirement. This happened a few years ago, so we want to really bank on that. Before these guys go into retirement, we want them to come and help us build a world-leading industrial nanofab for quantum, and CMOS if there's enough budget or if that's within the works. That's the part I would be very focused on and I would very much appreciate help with from government.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you, Dr. Yazdi and Mr. Deltell.

We'll now move to Mr. Gaheer for six minutes.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Thank you, Chair, and thank you to the witnesses for making time for this committee. My first question is for Dr. Laflamme.

Dr. Laflamme, what needs to be done to develop or attract academic researchers in Canada, and how do we retain them? I see stiff competition from top universities in America, the U.K. and Australia, so what can be done?

[Dr. Raymond Laflamme]

Thank you. It's a very good and important question.

I will give you the answer to how I recruited people for the Institute for Quantum Computing. You need to have a vision of what you want to do, so that the people you are trying to attract know that they are not going to come to a place where they are on their own, doing their little piece of work; they'll be supported by colleagues, students and post-doctoral fellows who can help them achieve the goals they want to.

You also need resources to do this, so if you hire a theoretician, it's relatively easy without too much in the way of resources, but as you've heard from Dr. Yazdi about building a fabrication facility, this doesn't come cheaply. Fortunately, Canada has been leading and helping to provide fabs that are for research, and maybe Dr. Yazdi could have commented on the difference between a fab that you do for research purposes and a fab that you do for production purposes.

For research purposes, you do not have to have a yield that is extremely high; you just want to have devices from time to time that have the right properties. However, if you want to commercialize and sell this, the yield has to be very high, and that's another ball game. Today, for $50 million to $100 million you can have a research fab. If you want to have a fab for commercialization, that goes into the hundreds of millions—if not the billions, certainly if you look at the Intel-type fab—so the cost there is depending on the purpose.

If you want to attract people, you need to have the resources, so having a vision, having a community and having resources are the three most important things. I'll add another one, which is to think outside the box. What I mean by this is, nowadays in the world in which we live, usually, when you hire a person they have a partner who is as smart as they are, so then you have to help them find a job and do various things or establish their family somewhere. That is where people from the committee, like you, can help. It means if you attract somebody from outside, they need a visa; they need support and a certain amount of certainty that they will be able to succeed in what they do.

What I have done in the past is talk to my local MP and ask them to help me to recruit people to come to Canada. I can tell you that 20 years ago the field was a lot easier and much less competitive. It was just the beginning, but today it is incredibly competitive. I see my three colleagues here, and they know what I mean about when you try to attract a really good person to come and join. The success is not 100%, and this is normal when it is highly competitive, but if we do it and we do it as a team effort, I think we can succeed.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

That's great. Thank you for your answer. I can see very clearly why immigration policy needs to work in conjunction to attract and keep academic talent.

My second question is also for you. What's the benefit of international co-operation on research, and how do we balance security concerns and IP protection with this benefit?

[Dr. Raymond Laflamme]

This is again an excellent question and a hard one to answer.

On the first part—why we need to have international collaboration—it's that we have very smart people in Canada, but we are only a small proportion of the population of the rest of the world, and there are very smart people around the world. We can take advantage of their knowledge. By adding collaboration, typically on the research side, that helps very much.

Once you start the commercialization, things become a bit more complex, because then you may have both national security issues and also IP protection involved. We know that around the world there are different countries that are very aggressive in learning about what we're doing here in Canada, so we have to be sure that we are alert.

That's another thing I've learned in working in Canada. In fact, in working at a national lab in the U.S., security concerns definitely were something that was kind of up there. When I arrived here in Canada in 2000, there was very little, although I would like to thank people at CSIS and CSEC for their help in ensuring that what we do in Canada is protected in the right way.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you very much.

We'll now move to Mr. Lemire for six minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for the important contribution they make to our study. I must say that this has taken me out of my comfort zone for the past few weeks, but it is reassuring to hear their testimony.

Dr. Laflamme, I was surprised to hear you say that we are currently running a marathon. I was under the impression that it was a rather crazy race and that we had to get there first. In the case of a marathon, you think of something that lasts for a long time, and during which you have to save your energy in anticipation of moments when you will have to put in more effort.

Can you tell me more about your vision of the strategy that the Canadian government should adopt?