Industry Committee on March 29th, 2022

[Dr. Raymond Laflamme]

Canada should have its own strategy. It should not follow what other people are doing. If we follow what other people are doing—let's say, the United States—they have a lot more resources than we do. We have to find our own niche. We heard comments a bit earlier on making choices, deciding what is really important for Canadians and following that path.

However, we definitely have some lessons. Bringing people together is something that other countries have been doing. Trying to think about quantum information science not as a bunch of different boxes next to each other, but as a whole, is really important. This comes back to the theme of having these quantum ecosystems, which I mentioned a bit earlier.

[Tracy Gray, Conservative, Kelowna—Lake Country, BC]

Thank you. I have one more quick question here. I wanted to ask you about privacy.

How would the emergence and adoption of quantum technology affect Canadians' privacy and the protection of personal data? What privacy laws do you think we should be updating and looking at now?

[Dr. Raymond Laflamme]

There are two parts to privacy. One is whether we communicate privately with each other. Then, also, the codes that are used to secure your bank accounts are the same ones that are used for private communication. These encryption methods will have to be upgraded.

Once we have this, for the rest there's not much difference from a privacy point of view from what you have without quantum computers. Whether you have a piece of information that comes from a quantum computer or from a classical computer, it's just information.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you very much.

We'll go now to MP Lapointe for five minutes.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'd like to continue with the line of questioning started by my colleague, Mr. Gaheer. I think these are key areas where government and policy can actually be helpful.

My first question is for Dr. Yazdi.

You have both research and business knowledge in the quantum field. On your website, you made an interesting statement that you recognized that “the newly emerging field of quantum computing lacked tools to engineer large scale systems”. Because of that lack of tools, you had to be very innovative and draw from your expertise in high-performance computing to develop those tools.

In terms of economic development and supply chain for hardware, what challenges do you see? What can government policy do to help?

[Dr. Alireza Yazdi]

Thank you very much for the excellent question.

I'll start with the second part of the question, which is the supply chain, because supply chain is what keeps me awake at night, and I mean it in a literal manner. These days, our [Inaudible—Editor] chips are 52 weeks back-ordered, so this is very serious.

Right now in the United States they're looking very hard at the supply chain of quantum computing. This was one of the reasons that Anyon, back in 2016, decided that they were going to make every component of a superconducting quantum computer internally. For example, there are only two companies that are making commercial-grade cryogenics systems. One is in Finland and the other one is in the UK. They can easily be bought by other competitors, and that's very detrimental to the future of our industry.

What I recommend that the government do is the same exercise that our partners in the U.S. are doing. First, choose what priority technologies you want to invest in, try to secure them, and bring them to Canada. What the pandemic showed us is that even having masks and PPEs could be strategic; in times of need, we couldn't get them, even from our friends.

I would look at the supply chain very carefully.

I would highly recommend that we consider other chip fabrication as the Achilles heel of this, both on the classical side, on CMOS, and also on the quantum side, which I think could be our niche in the global market. Right now, we are as competitive as any other country in building superconducting...or other types of quantum devices. This is the part I would recommend that the government take a very good look at and think about making a priority.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

I have a follow-up question.

Clearly, establishing downstream ecosystem opportunities to support a quantum sector is necessary. What types of supply chain supports are needed by your sector?

[Dr. Alireza Yazdi]

In our industry, one is the cryogenics system, which we make ourselves. There is electronics—controlled electronics and microwave electronics. Right now the biggest supply chain for that comes from the United States. It then comes down to nanofabrication. Right now, we're using a shared facility at Waterloo.

Again, the Achilles heel of all this goes back right now to electronics and building what we call field programmable gate arrays, FPGAs, and ASIC chips. This is not only in Canada; the whole world is dependent on Taiwan, to a great extent, especially the foundries at TSMC. I believe it is a geopolitical Achilles heel, because if China decides to invade Taiwan tomorrow, this could melt down a lot of economic sectors across the world.

This is also something we should really think about in a bigger strategic and economic context than just quantum.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you.

Quickly, Mr. Fursman, in terms of having qualified individuals at all levels of quantum sector development in Canada, what's the number one thing you suggest that Canada can do, not only to attract but to develop the talent here as well?

[Dr. Alireza Yazdi]

I'm sorry. For whom was the question?

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

What do you suggest we do to attract and develop the talent here in Canada?

[Dr. Alireza Yazdi]

I assume I'm going to answer that.

One thing I highly recommend is that we look into partnering universities and industries to make sure the training they're receiving in academia matches the needs in industry.

Unfortunately, this is one of the areas we have not been great at, especially in basic science—quantum is actually emerging from that. Quite often we see people graduating with Ph.D.s, doing research on topics that are not exactly relevant to what we want, but that's what we have to work with. Then, there is a lot of training on the job.

This could be another important point in our national strategy, hopefully, to find ways to make sure the universities have an insight into what the industry needs in the short and long term.

[Viviane LaPointe, Liberal, Sudbury, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you, Dr. Yazdi.

Mr. Lemire, you have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Dr. St‑Jean, thank you for your testimony.

You said that you wanted to end your remarks on an optimistic note, which made me react a little, because that implies that there are not always optimistic moments in the industry. I would like to hear your comments on that.

You also said that you were always looking for short‑term income and that you wanted to receive enough money. You also talked about the delays in the approval process of projects, which sometimes make them irrelevant. So there's a real problem with the speed of response and support for the industry.

How could support be translated, for example through programs? Concretely, how can we help you in terms of production, when you're ready to move to that stage?

[Dr. Philippe St-Jean]

A way should be found to allocate funds to research and development related to quantum technologies. The current programs have their constraints, which is normal. Since these are public funds, guidelines must be set for these subsidies.

For example, funding could be allocated to an organization run by specialists, by people who already have expertise and who are able to quickly assess the files and ensure that the amounts requested will support the right initiatives.

In addition, there was discussion earlier about DARPA in the United States. Massive efforts are being made by the Americans. One of the things DARPA does is provide funding opportunities, and Canadian companies can apply. If they meet the requirements and if they get funding from DARPA, it would be interesting to have some sort of matching on the Canadian side. It would save the government and those companies time, because the project would have already been approved by a serious agency. We are small companies, and having to submit a project twice, based on criteria that are not quite the same, takes a lot of time.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

You're looking for error‑tolerant technology.

Should we have the same philosophy when it comes to funding? In other words, should there be better venture capital?

[Dr. Philippe St-Jean]

You raise a good point.

We talked earlier about the new investment fund offered by the Business Development Bank of Canada to support what companies call “deep tech companies”. We have benefited as a start‑up in this area. It's very interesting, but there is indeed a gap in Canada.

It was very important for us to join forces with this partner. These are people who think about long‑term solutions. Typically, a technology investment fund has a horizon of about 10 or 12 years. In the case of quantum technologies, you have to think about longer‑term solutions. This is what we would like to see emerging in Canada and, above all, at all levels in terms of funding.

For pre‑start‑up and start‑up companies, finding small‑scale funding isn't easy, but it's possible. The subsequent steps create greater challenges. Xanadu had done it, and we're very proud of them. This is a very good example of what can be done in Canada. This company has obviously received help from foreign investors. That's also the case for us, because we've had a European investor since day one.

Some form of support needs to be provided at all stages. It's important to think about solutions now, because these companies are currently growing.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you, Dr. St‑Jean.

I doubled Mr. Lemire's time because the question was interesting. The answer was equally interesting.

Mr. Masse now has the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. That was a good investment. It was a good exchange.

Mr. Laflamme, you might be able to answer this question the best: With regard to international students, what do we do with regard to retaining them?

I think our country hasn't done a great job. I represent the University of Windsor and St. Clair College, where we have a lot of international students and there's a big debate about their costs and what they incur with the debts they have, paying higher tuition fees. There's also a debate about how we actually can bring in as Canadian citizens those individuals who want to stay. There has been a lot of success, because they have a lot of invested community connections at that point in their education.

I wonder whether we're seeing that now in quantum computing, or whether it's too early. Has it been happening? What's going on with international students?

There's losing talent, but there's also bringing in talent.

[Dr. Raymond Laflamme]

Absolutely. I would say that, looking at my 20 years of being back in Canada, and looking at the students who are coming from the outside to Canada, things have been incredibly impressive. Interestingly—and maybe this is only one point of data among many—very few people from the United States would apply to do a Ph.D. at Waterloo in quantum information in 2002-03. Now, we're seeing a much larger number of 10% to 20% in some years.

We have definitely made a lot of progress, and I think that relates to the strength of quantum computing and the reputation that we built during that time.

To keep them around, I think my colleagues in the industry might want to put a little more worth on this. At the university, they come and they do a master's degree, a Ph.D. and sometimes a post-doctoral study, and then they have to move on. We don't keep them after that, and it's good for them to go and move [Technical difficulty—Editor] one location to the other.

In the start-up scene, certainly around Waterloo, I've seen many of the students worry about returning. I do not remember the number of years you have to be in Canada as a student to become a permanent resident, but I've seen many of them try to do this. This process is often cumbersome and hard, and maybe there are better ways to make it more fluid, so that colleagues in industry can hire these students more easily and get a better talent pool to develop quantum technology.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I think I'm out of time, so I'll give the second part of that to the other panellists in my final round.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you, Mr. Masse.

I'll now turn to Mr. Kram for five minutes.

[Michael Kram, Conservative, Regina—Wascana, SK]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to come back to Professor Laflamme and follow up on some of the questions that my colleague Ms. Gray was asking.

Professor Laflamme, did I hear you correctly that once quantum computing technology becomes widespread, all of our current Internet encryption and decryption will be obsolete?