Evidence of meeting #140 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was equifax.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Julie Kuzmic  Senior Compliance Officer, Consumer Advocacy, Equifax Canada Co.
Alexander Vronces  Executive Director, Fintechs Canada
Margaret Yu  Financial Empowerment Coordinator, Momentum
Clerk of the Committee  Ms. Miriam Burke

The Vice-Chair Conservative Rick Perkins

I call this meeting to order.

Our chair is on the way, but I will start the meeting, as he's asked me to in his absence.

Welcome to meeting number 140 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Industry and Technology.

Before we begin, there's the usual thing about the earpieces. Please be careful for our translators. There's a nice little sticker on the table to place the earpiece on away from the microphone so that we don't get feedback.

Pursuant to the motion adopted on Thursday, September 19, 2024, the committee is resuming its study on credit card practices and regulations in Canada.

We are pleased to welcome our witnesses today. We have Julie Kuzmic, senior compliance officer at Equifax Canada. She's responsible for consumer advocacy. We have Alexander Vronces, executive director of Fintechs Canada. We have a third witness, Margaret Yu, who is currently having some trouble logging in.

Why don't we proceed right now with the opening statements for five minutes? We'll begin with Ms. Kuzmic, from Equifax Canada

Julie Kuzmic Senior Compliance Officer, Consumer Advocacy, Equifax Canada Co.

Good afternoon, Mr. Vice-Chair and members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to appear before you today. I truly appreciate your understanding that my remarks will be in English only.

My name is Julie Kuzmic. I am representing Equifax Canada Co., one of Canada's two major nationwide credit reporting agencies, or credit bureaus, as they are commonly known. My role at Equifax is senior compliance officer, consumer advocacy, which keeps me highly focused on two key areas: one, Equifax's compliance with consumer protection and other applicable legislation; and two, helping people in Canada navigate their own credit decisions with more confidence in order to live their financial best.

Understanding the study at hand as it relates to credit card practices and regulations, I would like to provide context as to the role Equifax plays in Canada's credit ecosystem. Equifax Inc. is incorporated in the U.S., and is the parent company of Equifax Canada, which is incorporated here in Canada. It operates independently pursuant to Canadian laws and regulations. As a licensed Canadian credit bureau, Equifax Canada is subject to provincial regulation, as well as federal privacy and other applicable legislation.

We live in a credit-based economy. Although Equifax Canada plays an important role, which I will elaborate on shortly, Equifax Canada does not extend credit to consumers or businesses. Equifax does not give recommendations to lenders, such as credit card issuers, on whether they should approve applicants. Further, Equifax does not collect payments from borrowers. Equifax's role is maintaining the contents of Canadian consumer credit files, which we use to deliver products to lenders, such as credit reports and credit scores, in compliance with applicable legislation. I would like to offer some insights into how these pieces fit together.

Many of the banks and lenders in Canada collect and report information about their consumer accounts to Equifax. Examples of these types of accounts include mortgages, lines of credit, installment loans, and, of course, credit cards. Equifax maintains a database of the information associated with a particular consumer in the form of a credit report, also called a credit history or credit file.

I will use the term “credit report” in my remarks. An individual's credit report contains the credit account information that has been reported to Equifax, along with other data lawfully sent to Equifax, such as collections accounts, insolvency-related information and legal judgments that are financial in nature.

To zero in on credit cards specifically, the type of data that is sent to Equifax by the credit card issuer would typically include the account balance, credit limit, amount of previous payment and information around past payments, which may have been late or overdue. This snapshot of account data does not include any information about the interest rate associated with that particular credit card.

Each credit account on an individual's credit report is typically updated monthly on a rolling basis. Someone checking their own credit report on a given day will see the information associated with each account that was most recently reported. For example, people monitoring their Equifax credit report may find that their Mastercard account typically gets updated on the sixth of each month, while their Visa card account is typically updated on the 21st.

One of the pieces of information that is not maintained on a consumer credit report is a credit score. Credit scores are calculated on demand. A credit score is a three-digit number between 300 and 900 that serves as a behavioural prediction of how likely a consumer is to pay his or her bills on time, based on the data available on that person's credit report at the time the score is calculated.

I'm happy to elaborate on credit scores; however, in the interest of time and the focus of your study, I will highlight that credit card fees and interest rates are not reported to Equifax. They, therefore, have no direct influence on a consumer's credit score.

At Equifax, we're focused on helping Canadians. We believe consumers can make more informed financial decisions when they are empowered with greater credit literacy.

In addition to the substantial educational [Technical difficulty—Editor] on people who are new to Canada, new to credit or rebuilding their credit following a difficult financial situation. We are often consulted by government, regulatory and non-profit organizations to help ensure their—

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Excuse me, Ms. Kuzmic.

Your audio temporarily froze there, so if you want to back up about 30 seconds or so in your notes, that would be great. I can't hit rewind.

MP Turnbull has asked me to hit rewind, but I can't do it.

3:45 p.m.

Senior Compliance Officer, Consumer Advocacy, Equifax Canada Co.

Julie Kuzmic

At Equifax, we are focused on helping Canadians, and we believe consumers can make more informed financial decisions when they're empowered with greater credit literacy. In addition to the substantial educational content on our Canadian website, we offer free community presentations outlining the basics of credit reports and scores, with a particular focus on people who are new to Canada, new to credit or rebuilding their credit following a difficult financial situation. We are often consulted by government, regulatory and non-profit organizations to help ensure that their educational content is as accurate, clear and impactful as possible.

As the largest credit bureau in Canada, our purpose at Equifax is to help people live their financial best. We are happy to assist with the important work of this committee in any way we can.

Mr. Acting Chair and Mr. Chair—if you've now joined us—that concludes my opening remarks. I look forward to the committee's questions.

Thank you.

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Thank you very much.

My apologies to all of you for the delayed start. I understand that my colleague MP Perkins did a fantastic job opening this meeting, so I'm pleased with that.

We'll now turn to Fintechs Canada.

Mr. Vronces, the floor is yours for five minutes.

Alexander Vronces Executive Director, Fintechs Canada

Thank you to all the members of the committee for inviting us to appear and contribute to this study.

My name is Alex Vronces, and I am the executive director of Fintechs Canada.

With almost 50 members who collectively serve millions of Canadians on a daily basis, we're an industry association of Canada's most innovative financial technology companies.

There is much to say about credit cards. In these opening remarks, I'm going to focus on two things. One is that credit cards are enablers of commerce. Two is that they are an accessible source of credit for Canadians.

The Bank of Canada's most recent survey on payment methods found that nine in 10 adult Canadians have at least one credit card. In 2023, one in three payments were made with a credit card. Many prefer using their credit cards because of the rewards, because they're widely accepted and because they make buying and selling seamless.

Credit cards have also long had some of the best built-in liability protection for consumers. This was even before the federal government legislated the requirement to better protect consumers in the event of unauthorized credit card payments.

While more than half of Canadians pay off their balance before it starts accruing interest, according to some Bank of Canada data I consulted with before I appeared today, some rely on their credit cards to get by when there is nothing better.

Interest rates in the credit card market vary. While some retail cards are as high as 30%, there are several cards with rates as low as 10% to 12%. The FCAC, the Financial Consumer Agency of Canada, says that credit cards are a cheaper source of credit than the alternatives that many Canadians in precarious situations turn to, such as payday loans.

The way to make the financial sector work better for Canadians is not to make the issuance of credit cards or the processing of credit card payments more complex. There is a level of regulation that's necessary to protect consumers and merchants as well as to ensure the stability of our financial system. Canada is on track to meet that standard. Doing substantially more would just erect unnecessary barriers to entry, making the Canadian market even more uninviting for financial sector innovation.

The way to make the financial sector work better for consumers and merchants is to increase the level of competition. The government can do this by doing three things.

First, it could regulate payment service providers. This is something that's already happening. When this initiative is complete, it will make it easier for the credit card networks, among others, to let new entrants into their systems to compete with the incumbents, whether that's by offering lower interest rates, better protecting cardholders from fraud or offering more attractive rewards.

Second, we are overdue in launching Canada's real-time rail, which was supposed to boost competition between the different payment systems. Real-time rail has long been opposed by those who have the most to lose, the big banks. Big banks control Payments Canada, which is in charge of building the system that will compete with the other payment systems that big banks rely on for so much of their revenue. The government needs to fix the Payments Canada model to make sure that our payment system benefits Canadians, not just Canada's biggest banks.

Third, we're still behind on open banking. Though open banking is coming to Canada, the scope will be limited at launch. On day one, open banking will be about sharing data, not also initiating payments. Payment initiation is what would have allowed a fintech and a merchant to work together to make it more attractive for a customer to pay the merchant by something other than a credit card.

Thank you again for the opportunity to appear today. I look forward to answering any questions you might have for me.

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Okay. Thank you very much.

While we're trying to perhaps resolve the issue with Momentum or find a way, we'll start the discussion right now.

Ms. Rempel Garner, you'll start us off. You have six minutes.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I'll direct my questions to Fintechs Canada.

Thank you for coming here and for the work you guys do.

One of your member companies is Stripe, a payment processor. In a series of articles this week, including one by the National Post, the long and the short of it is that Stripe has taken a posture of saying that it wouldn't pass the savings that were part of a deal reached by the government with Visa and Mastercard to lower the fee for small businesses along to their customers. One of the rationales on their website that they've used for this is that their costs have “increased by 0.036%” on standard pricing “due to the...reintroduction of GST/HST taxes”.

If this is true, how come your other members' companies that are payment processors haven't taken the same posture as Stripe?

3:50 p.m.

Executive Director, Fintechs Canada

Alexander Vronces

That's a great question.

I think it's because of, well, a few things. Just because interchange fees are changing doesn't mean the overall pricing model of any given payment processor has to change. That's because the market for payment processing, especially credit cards, is fairly competitive and fairly well developed. There's a lot of differentiation in the market. Firms don't just compete with each other on the basis of price. They also compete with each other on the basis of value added.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Can I back up to something you said?

You said that payment processors essentially aren't obligated to pass that savings along. Why do you think the government didn't mandate the passing of savings along? To me it seems like a bit of a shell game if these savings are supposed to be passed along to small businesses and then they're not. They're essentially just going to cover the operating costs or the profits of these payment processors.

Why do you think the government didn't elect to say that this must be passed along through payment processors?

3:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Fintechs Canada

Alexander Vronces

I would be speculating. I wasn't talking to the government about why it didn't mandate the pass-through.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Did any of your member companies take a posture to ask you to ensure that the government would not force them to pass any savings along? Did any of your member companies say, “We need to make sure that the government doesn't force us to pass these savings along to our customers”?

3:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Fintechs Canada

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Okay.

Has this ever come up in any discussions with any of your member companies and any of your executive?

3:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Fintechs Canada

Alexander Vronces

Occasionally we will talk about the various issues that are going on, but the debit and credit card code of conduct is not something we've been asked to engage on, and it's not something that we had a seat at the table on. We focus primarily on other issues in the financial sector, mostly payments modernization and open banking.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Thank you.

A senior Liberal fundraiser, Mark Carney, just put out a large fundraising ask for the Liberal government. He's rumoured to be a leadership contender and has now been appointed to be a senior economic adviser without any sort of firewall.

Have you ever had any interaction with Mr. Carney?

3:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Fintechs Canada

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Okay.

Are you aware of any advocacy that he has made on behalf of Stripe with regard to this particular issue?

3:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Fintechs Canada

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Okay.

As far as the rest of your member companies are concerned, if I were sitting on one of their boards, I would be concerned that this line of questioning is coming up in this committee. Do you think it's problematic that we now have a narrative that could potentially involve the lobbying of a senior Liberal fundraiser, one of your member companies and the fact that they're not passing savings along?

Do you see that as potentially problematic from an ethics perspective?

3:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Fintechs Canada

Alexander Vronces

I don't know how to answer the question from an ethics perspective. However, I often find it unfortunate when complicated issues are simplified to a point where they can't really be understood for what they are. The thing about the market for payment processing that I think is understood by experts.... I mean, the Competition Bureau put out a report a few years ago on innovation in the financial sector, and one of the things that report said is that the market for payment processing is quite competitive.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

Would you say it's fair to say that in some cases, particularly Stripe, with the decision the government made to reach that deal with Visa and Mastercard to lower fees, it's now being absorbed by payment processors like Stripe, as opposed to being realized by small business owners?

3:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Fintechs Canada

Alexander Vronces

I think I understand what you're asking. I think in a lot of cases, there are some savings being passed on to merchants, but in a lot of cases, the pricing.... The overall pricing of a payment processor is not just based on the interchange fee. There are so many other things that payment processors do.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Michelle Rempel Conservative Calgary Nose Hill, AB

With the time I have left, do you think the government should have included payment processors like Stripe in this deal they reached with Visa and Mastercard, if the true motivation was to see savings be realized by small businesses?

3:55 p.m.

Executive Director, Fintechs Canada

Alexander Vronces

I think the government should have invited more stakeholders to the table to talk about the implications of what they did.