Industry Committee on Nov. 7th, 2024

[Nicolas Marion]

We do provide notes to the minister. I'm not at liberty to share advice provided to ministers—

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Why? Where in your job description and your mandate does it actually specifically say that you can't provide members of Parliament—who are members equal to the minister—with that information? If you actually gave me information, if you gave it to me in my office, I would readily share that not only with my constituents but also with other people.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Just one second, Mr. Masse, please.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

I believe that advice to ministers is covered under cabinet confidence, and I'm not sure why the member is pushing in this direction.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Yes, Mr. Turnbull, there's a—

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

On the point of order, I can respond—

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

I'll just advise members that, as you know, for public servants there is a bit of a tension between.... They do provide advice to the cabinet, and there is a limit to what they can share.

There is no limit to what the committee can ask, but understand that there's this tension that the public servants are under when they're testifying before this committee. There's a line....

I have Mr. Masse and then Madam Rempel Garner.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Well, it depends on the minister and on the department. We can also get briefing books and so forth. I'm trying to get an assertation as to what limits have been prescribed for the public service with regard to the ministers.

For the parliamentary secretaries, that's ordinary business. Each minister is very different in terms of what they will.... You can get the briefing books. You can do all the different things. You can do ATIP. You can do all those different things.

What I'm trying to ascertain is where the guardrails are that have been directing Mr. Marion at this point in time in terms of information. We've already heard right now that some stuff is verbal or on the phone and some stuff is written in notes and is provided that way.

I don't understand it exactly, and I want to know specifically where his mandate for those guardrails is coming from. That's what I would like to know, because that's going to determine how I seek out the information that's necessary for this committee.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Mr. Masse, I'm listening, and then I'll come back, but we'll go to Madam Rempel Garner.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

Briefly, Chair, having been in cabinet, I understand when the information goes into cabinet secrecy and when it doesn't.

However, I had an exchange earlier with a public servant when I was asking for the roll-up of public consultations. That would not be covered under cabinet confidence at all. To be told as a parliamentarian that I can't receive that information is a bit of a misunderstanding within the public service about the fact that they respond to us, and not the other way around. They act at our pleasure, and not the other way around.

Now, I'm not saying that this needs to be a negative relationship, but to be told that we can't get the roll-up of public consultations as parliamentarians is kind of egregious.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you, MP Rempel Garner.

Go ahead, MP Turnbull.

[Ryan Turnbull, Liberal, Whitby, ON]

Mr. Masse's been around this place for a a long time, so I think he knows where the lines are. If he has a question or a request for the minister, maybe he wants to make that request directly to the minister.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

I want to get back to the questioning. I don't want to waste too much time on this.

However, for our witnesses, to Madam Rempel Garner's point, cabinet confidence cannot be used as a shield for all questions.

For the committee, we'll review in the minutes what's been asked for. I propose, as chair, that we can send a letter to the officials who've been asked to submit some information. Then they can review it with a bit of distance.

It can be hard to determine, cold turkey like this, whether something falls or doesn't fall under cabinet confidence, but we can ask, see what they come back with and then decide it from there. That's what I would submit to committee members, if you agree.

Be free to ask while you have the floor, Mr. Masse, but understand the tension that Mr. Turnbull has highlighted and that public servants are not free to share everything.

Go ahead, Mr. Masse.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

To finish on this point of order—so I don't lose my time—I'm asking for the process here, not the information.

[Michelle Rempel, Conservative, Calgary Nose Hill, AB]

He's asking for process. It's not a point of order.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Mr. Masse, you may pursue your line of questions.

As I've said, on behalf of the committee, I'll ask for the information from the officials, and we'll see what they can share.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I appreciate that.

What I'm trying to ascertain is exactly what goes into making the entire sausage of credit card interest rates. It's the minister's information, the context and so forth, that takes place as we get there.

You mentioned that many stakeholders were consulted. Can you tell me who those stakeholders were?

[Nicolas Marion]

Yes, I think we can.

In terms of the payment card networks, we spoke with Visa, Mastercard and American Express.

For financial institutions, we spoke with BMO, TD, CIBC, Scotiabank, RBC, National Bank and Desjardins.

For merchant associations, we spoke with the Canadian Federation of Independent Business, the Canadian Federation of Independent Grocers, the Retail Council of Canada, the Convenience Industry Council of Canada—

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

You kind of almost did the same as our study here.

[Nicolas Marion]

We spoke with all of them following the fall economic statement.

On top of that, in 2021 the government held a public consultation, consulting all Canadians and stakeholders on reducing interchange—

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

It was interchange fees, but not interest rates. I appreciate that. That's actually a very good response, in terms of giving me the inventory of the people you consulted with.

Was it just on the interchange fees, or did it also include the interest rates? Absent in some of the testimony you provided just now were furniture stores and other buy-now, pay-later businesses, which are other groups and organizations we've heard from.

Was it just focused mostly on the interchange?

[Nicolas Marion]

The consultation in 2021 was focused on merchants' interaction with credit cards and payment cards. It was mostly focusing on interchange, but also other elements related to a merchant's interaction with that part of the payments ecosystem.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Did any of that include the interest rates, though?

[Nicolas Marion]

It did not.