Evidence of meeting #147 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was interac.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

Members speaking

Before the committee

Matthew Boswell  Commissioner of Competition, Competition Bureau Canada
Krista McWhinnie  Deputy Commissioner, Monopolistic Practices Directorate, Competition Bureau Canada
Anthony Durocher  Deputy Commissioner, Competition Promotion Branch, Competition Bureau Canada
Shereen Benzvy Miller  Commissionner, Financial Consumer Agency of Canada
Frank Lofranco  Deputy Commissioner, Supervision and Enforcement, Financial Consumer Agency of Canada
Supriya Syal  Deputy Commissioner, Research, Policy and Education, Financial Consumer Agency of Canada
Jason Bouzanis  Assistant Commissioner, Public Affairs, Financial Consumer Agency of Canada

7:15 p.m.

Commissionner, Financial Consumer Agency of Canada

Shereen Benzvy Miller

We don't really have a view on that, because that's not really our role as a regulator. What I would say is that, when you are armed with the information of how much the transaction will cost, you can decide whether or not you're going to use the service of e-transfer. It's a bit like deciding whether you want to use a service that is more expensive or a different service that is less expensive. There are other ways, for instance, to give people money, and you could opt to do that.

As a commissioner of FCAC, I don't have a view on that. It's not in my purview. What I care about is whether consumers have the information they need to make intelligent decisions and to act on them in the marketplace. That's really the element that—

Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON

I understand, and I agree with you generally, but it's a very general statement to make. It's no good being aware of what the fee structure is if you don't really have other options.

In today's world, I would argue.... I'm not asking for a response on this. I'm just stating my opinion, which is that, in today's world, you can't get by without using those services. If you have very few other options, you are bound to use and be subjected to the fee structures that those companies have. The fact that they have a position that is so dominant in the market is highly problematic for consumer—

7:15 p.m.

Commissionner, Financial Consumer Agency of Canada

Shereen Benzvy Miller

If I could just add clarity, though.... In recognizing that, one of the actions that FCAC has taken in the marketplace is to insist that the service providers, the federally regulated financial institutions, create a low-cost/no-cost account where, for example, people will have no-cost e-transfers with no fees attached.

FCAC is currently working on this with the Canadian Bankers Association and the federally regulated financial institutions, and it will expand the eligibility for these low-cost/no-cost accounts to more Canadians and those who are obviously the most vulnerable to these kinds of fees. It will include more types of transactions—not just e-transfers, but all kinds of online transactions, as well as electronic payments.

There is recognition that we need to look after people when they are unable to avail themselves of those services.

Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON

Fair enough. That sounds good. I'm glad that you're making that effort. It sounds like a good initiative.

I want to go back to another point that was made and clarify something. We had some debate about the code of conduct. MP Masse was talking about voluntary versus mandatory codes of conduct, which I think is a valid distinction.

In terms of the code of conduct that financial institutions and credit and debit card providers currently sign on to, who developed that code of conduct? Did they develop it, or did the Government of Canada develop it? I think that's really important in terms of who is setting the standard for their conduct.

7:20 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner, Supervision and Enforcement, Financial Consumer Agency of Canada

Frank Lofranco

The code of conduct was developed with the Department of Finance and the payment card network operators. The improvements made to the most recent code were informed by many insights, of which we contributed some in relation to fees and complaint handling in response to complaints we had heard from merchants over the years.

Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON

If I were to summarize, industry did not write its own code of conduct. It was done through a governmental process in which they were consulted, but the decision-making.... Sure, they provided input—I'm sure they would—but those decisions on developing the code of conduct were not theirs. Is that correct?

7:20 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner, Supervision and Enforcement, Financial Consumer Agency of Canada

Frank Lofranco

That's correct.

Although these codes can be characterized as voluntary, upon signature the obligations are mandatory.

Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON

Yes, OSFI has a lot of codes of conduct, regulatory requirements and guidelines that are not really voluntary. They're mandatory once they're in force. I can tell you that the climate risk management guideline B-15, which I was very interested in, went through rounds of consultation. Now it's in force, and all financial institutions have to abide by that now, which is great.

To go back to my line of questioning, how is that code of conduct updated? Let's say we want to hold our financial institutions to a higher standard. At this moment in time, I think that all of us around the table are saying, “Hey, there are some things here, and I'm not sure they're being held to the highest standard.” To me, that's not really your role. Your role isn't to change the code of conduct. Your role is to oversee the compliance with that code of conduct, if I'm not mistaken.

However, to change that code of conduct, who is it up to? Is it the Government of Canada?

7:20 p.m.

Commissionner, Financial Consumer Agency of Canada

Shereen Benzvy Miller

Yes, we're the enforcement arm or the supervisory arm, but the code itself and the standards that are set out in that code are the expectations that are set by the policy drivers, which is the Department of Finance.

Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON

Okay, great.

Lastly, we had quite a lot of conversation about how you oversee the complaints process. I get that there's some prodding and poking to say, “What is your role, and why is it necessary?” I get that, because you're monitoring to make sure the complaints process through the banks is amounting to response-and-resolve or, as you said, you can step in and ensure that customers or consumers are made whole. To what degree do you do that? When do you really throw the book at people and make financial institutions make people whole? That sounds like you're being tough, but I want to know how many of the 283 that you're responsible for, or maybe it's the 9,000 number that you cited.... What percentage of those are you stepping into and asserting your regulatory authority as the supervisor to say that they haven't done their job and you want them to now make the consumer whole?

7:20 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner, Supervision and Enforcement, Financial Consumer Agency of Canada

Frank Lofranco

That's a very good question. To reiterate, the reportable complaints we receive from banks are, by definition, complaints that have been handled and responded to. Our role is to ensure that they're handled in a way that meets consumer protection measures. For example, they have to be dealt with within 56 days, and the consumer needs to benefit from a written response. In the absence of satisfaction, there's an escalation process to an independent ombudsman that we call the ECB.

From a supervisory perspective, we have many sources of intel. Complaints reported by banks are one. Complaints received directly from consumers or merchants are another. We undertake our own risk assessments, reviews and so on, and we interact closely with financial partners.

Ultimately, a complaint or set of complaints can point to a particular risk in an institution that might be speaking to non-compliance. Where there is a risk of non-compliance or confirmed non-compliance, we undertake investigative work to determine the nature of that and what the breach is, and we take appropriate actions accordingly, which could range from a notice to a publication of a violation, accompanied by a financial penalty.

In some cases, we learn of these things from the ECB itself—the external complaints body. There are scenarios in which a particular issue in an institution presents itself as possibly being systemic, in which case we will engage multiple institutions to understand whether there is a systemic issue. Where we discover non-compliance, we take actions as warranted.

To the earlier point that was made, I can tell you that consumers have received by way of redress—i.e., being made whole—millions of dollars. However, I do take the point from this committee that the line of sight on that is maybe something that could be improved, and our commissioner has agreed to accept that as a takeaway, on her ninth day on the job.

Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON

She said it was her 12th day.

7:25 p.m.

Deputy Commissioner, Supervision and Enforcement, Financial Consumer Agency of Canada

Frank Lofranco

Yes. She counted the weekend.

7:25 p.m.

Commissionner, Financial Consumer Agency of Canada

Shereen Benzvy Miller

I would just add that the other thing is that a lot of visibility is brought when there's a commissioner's decision. For instance, in 2022, there were complaints against CIBC from consumers that they were not being made whole, and the commissioner leveraged a monetary penalty of $6.5 million against CIBC. All of the customers were then reimbursed. That was supervised and also enforced by FCAC.

The gradual escalation of these things.... Obviously, it's in the best interest of everybody if things get resolved long before we go to a monetary penalty. The visibility becomes obvious when the commissioner does levy a fine. However, before that, there's a lot of remediation that takes place to make people whole.

Ryan Turnbull Liberal Whitby, ON

I just have a very quick last comment.

I would love to see more information on those systemic issues that come up. I would also just urge greater transparency and line of sight on those issues as they come up. I think that's what we're hearing around the table here throughout this conversation today. Again, I think that enhances trust in the role that you play, which is an important role.

Thanks.

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

This concludes our meeting.

Thank you very much, Commissioner Miller and all of your team. Congratulations on the new appointment.

Colleagues, thank you for bearing with us for four hours tonight. It's much appreciated.

I will see you guys on Thursday.

The meeting is adjourned.