Evidence of meeting #150 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was consumers.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Ali Abou Daya  Chief Operating Officer, CanPay Software Inc.
Michael Jenkin  Vice-President, Consumers Council of Canada
Tanya Woods  Managing Director, Government and Regulatory Affairs, Questrade Financial Group
Edward Kholodenko  President and Chief Executive Officer, Questrade Financial Group

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 150 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Industry and Technology.

Before we begin, I would like to ask all members and witnesses joining us in person to please review the guidelines for the use of microphones and earpieces. The health and safety of everyone is at stake, especially the interpreters, whom I would like to thank, in passing.

Pursuant to the motion adopted on Thursday, September 19, 2024, and the order of the House referring back the 20th report of the committee entitled “Potential anti-competitive behaviour in Canada's e-Transfer ecosystem”, the committee is resuming its study on credit card practices and regulations in Canada.

We are pleased to welcome our witnesses today.

From CanPay Software Inc., we have Ali Abou Daya, chief operating officer, who is joining us online. Thanks for being here.

From the Consumers Council of Canada, we have Michael Jenkin, vice-president. He is joining us here in Ottawa.

From Questrade Financial Group, we have Edward Kholodenko, president and chief executive officer; and Tanya Woods, managing director of government and regulatory affairs. Thanks for joining us.

You will each have five minutes for your opening remarks. Then we will open the floor for a discussion.

Without further ado, I will yield the floor to Mr. Ali Abou Daya from CanPay.

Ali Abou Daya Chief Operating Officer, CanPay Software Inc.

Thank you.

Good morning, everyone. Thank you for inviting me today.

I shall continue in English for comfort.

My name is Ali Abou Daya and I represent CanPay, a team that is aiming to improve the financial landscape in Canada. Our company is currently under development, and team CanPay hosts a group of hard-working Canadians, who have enabled over a $100 billion in transaction value globally over the past three years. I am a computer engineer with a business degree and over 16 years’ experience in technology commercialization in automation, AI and blockchain.

The work your committee is undertaking is of great importance to us Canadians, innovators and local businesses. Thank you.

I'm here today to discuss the need for a modern and less costly alternative to the dominant payments network, Interac. While dominant market positions typically come from competitive performance, the case cannot be made for Interac, simply because it's extremely difficult, if not impossible, for external players to bring forward any bank-to-bank transfer solution today without having to resort to Interac.

Banks have exclusive access to consumer accounts. When access is requested, they point to Interac as the incumbent and approved solution, effectively forcing the technology and the associated fees on the takers. Knowing that the banks are the majority shareholders of Interac, neither the banks nor Interac are compelled to modernize at the pace that is required to keep up with the rest of the world. As experience shows, lack of competition yields complacency.

Furthermore, the fee structures for shareholders of Interac are not public. One would expect more transparency from a service that is ubiquitous enough to resemble public services. As a personal example, I find it intriguing that the fees for similar value e-transfers conducted via different institutions range between zero to $1.05. If we compare this to the fees that we pay when exchanging cash, the discrepancy becomes more apparent. Similarly, businesses pay varying fees to use Interac in addition to the service fees they pay to the banks. These costs ultimately propagate onto the consumer.

Moreover, it appears that Interac offerings are not progressing at a comparable rate to other notable payment providers around the world. In comparing Interac with providers from the United Kingdom, Sweden, India and Brazil, for example, we found that in under three years, these countries rolled out cheaper, faster, more modern and feature-packed alternatives to their existing payment networks without significant disturbances.

Notably this past October, the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau in the U.S. finalized a rule that financial providers must make transaction information, account balance information, information for payments, bill information and basic account verification available without charging fees. This rule, along with the new incoming administration’s focus on reducing costs for its citizens, will no doubt move the U.S. to having a competitive open banking system in 2025. We must act, and we must act faster.

Over the past two years, our team has been building the foundation for a Canadian unified payments network, code-named CanPay, that prioritizes consumer needs, reduces overall consumer and operational fees and facilitates small to medium business financial operations with zero disruption to Canada’s current payment network, Interac. In simple terms, as our world is becoming more and more digital, we should expect to pay the same fee for sending an email as sending cash.

The potential economic impact of CanPay is substantial. Just on service fee reductions for online transfers alone, our solution would return at least $1 billion to Canadians in the first year of operation, another $1.5 billion indirectly because of time savings due to increased transaction limits, lower operational costs for financial institutions and increased financial inclusion. If we consider additional improvements to international money transfers, the overall impact doubles about $5 billion annually in five years' time.

We would like to recommend to this committee that, while not forgoing security and protections, we urge the committee to expedite the implementation of open-banking regulations, at least, to keep pace with our largest banking counterpart down south; to embrace and enhance competition in the financial sector to ensure the continuous improvement of consumer cost of living; and to fortify the resilience of Canada’s financial infrastructure by enabling parallel payment and settlement networks.

Thank you to all committee members for your leadership on this very important cost of living policy issue for Canadians.

Thank you for everything you do.

I would now welcome the opportunity to answer your questions.

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Thank you very much, Mr. Abou Daya.

Dr. Jenkin, you have the floor for five minutes.

Dr. Michael Jenkin Vice-President, Consumers Council of Canada

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, committee, for inviting us to present our views, in our specific sense, on credit cards and consumers.

You'll notice that my presentation is somewhat different, perhaps, from those of some of the providers or potential providers who are coming to talk to the committee. We're going to focus more on current problems with credit cards and the challenges consumers are facing with them. A lot of this is really more economic than technological, so forgive me if our focus is somewhat different.

The Consumers Council of Canada is a not-for-profit organization that's been in existence for well over 20 years. It's English Canada's primary consumer advocacy organization. It deals with a wide range of consumer issues from financial services through to energy markets, marketplace redress and rules governing the sale, warranties and so forth of goods and services, both federally and provincially.

I want to say just one thing in advance of getting into the details of the presentation. Credit cards, which have been the focus of our attention in the last while, are very unusual financial instruments. They're both a payment mechanism and a credit mechanism simultaneously. They conflate the issue of how you pay for something with the issue of whether you can afford it. A consequence of this is that the issues involved are interactive between the issues of affordability—which are particularly important today, because consumers are under significant financial stress—and the issues of convenience, safety and probity in the use of the payment mechanism itself.

It's a very complicated bundle of issues, and we believe it needs a lot more attention than it's been getting from policy-makers, regulators and, indeed, you, as parliamentarians.

Credit cards are becoming a very popular way of paying. Right now, the growth rate is increasing. About two-thirds of all purchase transactions over $50 by consumers are now conducted using credit cards. They're the predominant way for consumers to pay, rather than debit or cash.

According to the Bank of Canada, we like our credit cards, with nine out of 10 consumers having at least one. The average, according to the bank, is about 2.5 cards per consumer, so this is a well-distributed and very well-engaged payment mechanism. About six billion transactions a year, representing close to $600 billion in purchases, are conducted using credit cards. It's estimated that the average consumer spends about $2,200 a month on their credit cards through transactions.

They're an important payment mechanism for consumers and they're growing in importance. Clearly, for consumers, the consumer protections they have with respect to these payment mechanisms are very important and they need updating. There are some good protections, but they're not unified. They're dispersed over a number of pieces of legislation and practices, and we think it's high time they become centralized and well developed. One of our recommendations relates directly to that.

Of course, the other half of this equation is the important source of retail credit that credit cards perform and, importantly, by implication, the debt burden they represent for consumers. Credit cards are one of the most substantial categories of debt after mortgages and car payments. This is an important issue.

It was estimated in 2023 that total consumer credit card debt was approximately $97 billion and that 43% of cardholders had some amount of credit card debt. Of those with that debt, 40% estimated that it would take six months or more to liquidate it. An amazing 11% had no firm idea of when they would pay off their debt. Debt management issues here are becoming an important issue.

In the autumn, the Governor of the Bank of Canada noted that of the consumers who don't have mortgages, the number of people who had used 90% or greater of their line of credit limit—in other words, getting pretty close to the maximum—was growing and had reached historically unprecedented levels. We can see here this issue of the management of debt and the payment instrument coming together.

We've identified in our presentation that we gave to the committee on November 14, four particular issues that we think are important.

One is the obvious expensive character of the credit that's being given. Balances that are carried typically go for 19% to 21% interest rates on balances. In some cases, it's more, as in the case of ATM withdrawals. This is very expensive credit, particularly when you consider that unsecured consumer credit from the same financial institutions selling these payment mechanisms can be half as much for an unsecured consumer line of credit, for example. This is a very significant issue.

In addition to that, there are a lot of not obvious fees and costs in using a credit card that can be imposed, everything from annual fees for the use of the card, which can be $150 or more, depending on what features it has, to the high fees and interest charges laid on ATM cash withdrawals, what exact foreign exchange rate was used when you were purchasing items abroad and interest charges on a carried balance, which, as I've mentioned, are high. Also, once that balance has been paid off, there is often a period of one or two months when your financial institution will still charge you interest on the cost of the credit transactions that you accumulated that month, even though you might pay them off. There are a lot of outstanding issues here that need examination.

Cardholders, of course, are exposed to fraud and identity theft merely by being subscribers to a card. This is a popular and very profitable area for criminal activity. While we recognize that banks do their best and don't hold consumers liable for fraudulent transactions; nonetheless, the risk of having your financial information fall into the hands of criminal organizations is a very significant concern to people, and it's a growing concern because it's so profitable.

Consumers also face—

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Mr. Jenkin, I'll have to ask you to conclude.

8:30 a.m.

Vice-President, Consumers Council of Canada

Dr. Michael Jenkin

All right, but there's a final point I want to make.

The current system lets people get into debt too easily, by too much and too fast. While indebted and potentially financially failing consumers are not in credit card issuers’ interests, it's also clear that the substantial profit margins on carried balances and the high interest rates involved are a lucrative income source for financial institutions.

We've made two broad recommendations. One is to consult. We think a consultation is necessary nationally on consumer protection on credit cards as payment mechanisms and as debt mechanisms. We think the banks need to be made more accountable for their responsibility for and duty of care to consumers who are running into problems with credit cards as a credit instrument.

That wraps it up, I think.

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Thank you very much. I appreciate it.

Mr. Kholodenko or Madam Woods, the floor is yours.

Tanya Woods Managing Director, Government and Regulatory Affairs, Questrade Financial Group

Thank you, and good morning.

At Questrade, our mission is to help Canadians become much more financially successful and secure. We do this by offering services and products that empower them to take control of their financial future.

We share this committee's commitment to transparency, fairness for consumers and lower fees.

Today I am very pleased to have with me Edward Kholodenko, the founder and CEO of Questrade Financial Group, a low-cost financial pioneer in Canada, who will join me now to address the committee.

Edward Kholodenko President and Chief Executive Officer, Questrade Financial Group

Thank you, Tanya.

As a financial services company committed to providing Canadians with low-cost solutions, we have long advocated for greater competition and fairness for the financial services sector, expanded consumer transparency and diversified financial literacy efforts.

I've run Questrade for the last 25 years and in this time have witnessed tremendous innovation in the financial services industry. I've also been at the forefront of introducing digital low-cost products and services to Canadians, as well as government-initiated products like the first home savings account, which we were first to launch last year to support Canadians.

Over the years, I've been increasingly aware of avoidable costs and low competition in many corners of the financial services industry. This ultimately impacts Canadians, many of whom find it difficult to understand what they really pay for in their products and services.

Some of you may have seen our commercials and are aware that you can retire up to 50% wealthier by not paying high and historically hidden mutual fund trailer fees. These fees are some of the highest in the world and, for a long time, were not well understood by consumers. Interchange fees in Canada maintain a similar status. They are high and not well understood by many Canadian consumers.

We support the recommendations to increase the overall transparency of direct and indirect hidden fees impacting Canadians' overall financial well-being. Clear language and simplified disclosure of the terms and conditions related to financial services and products should also be prioritized, with current regulatory rules on this subject to be reviewed for improvements leading to enhanced consumer knowledge and accessibility so that Canadians are empowered to make the best decisions for their needs and goals.

We believe it's time to innovate from a regulatory and product perspective to drive more value back to Canadians. Improving competition and creating overall cost reductions for Canadians will take more than improvements to transparency. It's important to recognize that financial services and product providers continue to operate in an environment that perpetuates challenges to cost efficiency and competition, ultimately increasing costs for Canadians.

Regulatory requirements frequently lack harmonization between federal and provincial levels, leading to higher compliance costs. Rules and frameworks are not always tailored to the realities of smaller organizations, resulting in disproportionate financial impacts or discouraging them from competing altogether. Additionally, systemic improvements like RTR are slow to reach the market, delaying cost savings for both consumers and businesses.

The pace of global innovation further challenges this environment, as legislative and policy processes struggle to keep up with the rapid demands of novel solutions. Moreover, new payment and financial services frameworks and systems are being developed today in Canada and risk further entrenchment of these challenges. These new frameworks and systems include modernized payment solutions, real-time rails and consumer-driven banking. In these cases, details, including pricing and certain framework elements, are not yet established, making this opportunity for review critical and timely.

If these considerations are not systematically reviewed, the new frameworks and systems could impede fair and enhanced competition and make it difficult for non-incumbent market participants to offer innovative solutions and lower-cost solutions to Canadians.

As such, we recommend that the committee propose a competition review framework to protect Canadians and industry challengers from being negatively impacted where incumbents and dominant market players have notable control and influence. This could include a regular review of all core framework elements, including technological requirements, standards and design choices, restrictive customer experience requirements, and pricing for participants.

It should also include a review of chosen or dominant ecosystem intermediaries to determine if they are governed and operating in the system as truly independent commercial players or positioned with an unfair advantage to operate more as a public utility, with little or no competition but a clear mandate to enable core financial services for Canadians and industry competitors.

Establishing a review of this nature will help to enhance the competition in Canada's financial services ecosystem, uncover disproportionate and unfair fees charged to industry stakeholders by dominant intermediaries, level the playing field for competitors and, ultimately, work to reduce costs for Canadians.

We believe that a transparent, fair and competitive payments and consumer-driven financial services ecosystem is essential for a healthy Canadian economy and is in the interests of Canadian consumers.

We thank the committee for providing us with this opportunity and look forward to next steps.

The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound

Thank you very much, Mr. Kholodenko.

We'll start the discussion with MP Perkins for six minutes.

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, witnesses.

Mr. Kholodenko, I really want to get to questions for you because you're such an innovator. I will come to you in this round or maybe the next round, but I'd like to begin with CanPay.

In your opening statement, you said that your company has already cleared $100 billion in transactions over three years. Can you tell me where that's been done and what kind of services you've offered?

8:35 a.m.

Chief Operating Officer, CanPay Software Inc.

Ali Abou Daya

Absolutely. This team that formed CanPay has built a blockchain technology. This blockchain technology is licensed to multiple operators that work around the world. It mostly does transfers. It does some settlement transactions in some cases.

8:35 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

You have the ability to offer some of these services as a Canadian-owned and innovative company around the world, but not here in Canada.

8:35 a.m.

Chief Operating Officer, CanPay Software Inc.

Ali Abou Daya

Not at this point in time.

8:35 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

You're not allowed to offer it in Canada. Is that because we, as consumers, are given no choice when we operate with a Canadian bank?

I share Mr. Kholodenko's views on mutual funds. Thanks for doing all that advertising, by the way, to educate Canadians.

The banks own the clearing system and essentially have a complete monopoly power on e-transfers and interchange fees. Do they use that power to keep you out through their lobbying efforts in Ottawa or other means?

8:40 a.m.

Chief Operating Officer, CanPay Software Inc.

Ali Abou Daya

The key issue that we face when we want to offer a meaningful transfer solution is being able to offer bank-to-bank movement of the funds. The way the system is set up right now we cannot. Where would you go to get this access? First, if you request it from the bank, the bank says that Interac exists. Then, if you want to make this meaningful for all Canadians, you need to go to every financial institution, or at least all the major ones, in order to get it.

All of this brings more hurdles in our space and a lot of wasted time. It defeats anybody coming forward to offer these meaningful solutions to Canadians.

On the back end of this, regulation is coming forward now as it comes with everything that comes to blockchain, but also all the licensing that comes with using this technology as a back end for the movement also carries challenges as it comes here.

8:40 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

When we sign up for a transaction banking account, generally people do it in Canada where their parents banked or close to where they live or work. I worked for a bank at one time, I do confess. We're not given any choice of service providers. We get our little debit card with a little Interac signal on it.

When you're seeing this around the world, are consumers given a choice of systems? How does that competitive system work? Does the bank say that you have to use X provider?

8:40 a.m.

Chief Operating Officer, CanPay Software Inc.

Ali Abou Daya

Depending on the jurisdiction, you have different flavours of how this is done. There's frequently more than one way to move funds around, but it's not the case in Canada.

8:40 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

With the lack of competition—the complete monopoly—we know and we've heard here at the committee that for some reason those who are on the board of Interac seem to have a much lower cost than those who are not on the board of Interac. I wonder if you could comment on that monopolistic practice.

Also, when that movement of money happens around the world, what kinds of things are people in other countries getting access to in terms of services that we cannot get here, where we're sort of operating on a 1980s system?

8:40 a.m.

Chief Operating Officer, CanPay Software Inc.

Ali Abou Daya

One hundred per cent.

With regard to the specific price offering, as I mentioned in the letter, it's not public. We don't know exactly who's being offered what. We operate with some small businesses in the country, and they pay different fees to make these transfers. They say it's volume-priced or volume-based. Just at the core of it being volume-based, it disadvantages small and medium-sized businesses in a sense.

In the jurisdictions I mentioned, the U.K., Sweden, India and Brazil, to name a few, what people get—to separate people from consumers—all the transfers are free, and people can move money between their accounts at no cost. Then, for small and medium-sized businesses, depending on certain thresholds, it can be free or even much lower than what small businesses get offered here.

Then, with regard to interfacing with other modern features that are more or less becoming required today, not everybody has done the bridge to blockchain. A lot of work is being done, especially since today is the age of adoption in some of these countries. Just being able to connect multiple different systems.... In this case, I'll mention the UPI, which is India. They even made it easier to bridge paying for telecom services within these networks, leveraging that in order to move funds as well.

These are a lot of features and capabilities that are possible and were done—this is public information—in under three years in all of these cases. We don't have access to such features today in Canada.

8:40 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

If you get access to Canada.... I don't know if you're going through a process to try, through the regulators, to get approved to operate as a Canadian company in Canada. It seems a difficult thing to do. Will you be allowed to break into the transfer between banking systems, or are they limiting you to just providing services to fintechs?

8:45 a.m.

Chief Operating Officer, CanPay Software Inc.

Ali Abou Daya

This is exactly where the major problem is for us and for any other entity trying to offer these kinds of fintech services. With regard to real-time settlement, bank-to-bank settlement, there's no clear direction where to go or to whom you go to get this. You have to go to the banks one-on-one and then set up your own system in order to get something on there. It's not really clear, especially with no open banking regulations established in the country. This is the biggest challenge on that front.

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

Okay, I may come back to you.

Mr. Kholodenko, you've innovated in a very difficult space for 25 years to get in. How did you get into the system and around our burdensome issues and the bureaucratic, monopolistic control that the banks have had over the trading type of platform that you do?

8:45 a.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Questrade Financial Group

Edward Kholodenko

Thank you for your kind words.

It hasn't been easy. We found a niche in the marketplace very early where there were high fees and a lot of costs in between. What we did in the very, very beginning.... Our mission is to help consumers become much more financially successful and secure. The way we did it is we had that as our north star, and looking at that, we cut out all the fees in the middle and went directly to the consumer using existing rules and regulations.

Of course, we had to have a lot of discussions with the regulators. We have a lot of regulators that we deal with on a regular basis. We are heavily regulated in the financial services industry. It involves a lot of conversations to get them to understand that we're on the side of consumers. We need to help consumers do more. Competition is good and is better. We were at the forefront of lowering fees and helping consumers do better. That's why we're here.

8:45 a.m.

Conservative

Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS

What are some of the monopolistic practices that the banks control to try to keep you from eating their lunch and getting their customers? I'm sure that they're still using tactics to try to limit your ability to succeed.