Industry Committee on Dec. 9th, 2024

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Mr. Bachrach, you have about two minutes left.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Picking up on folks who are vulnerable in our communities, I want to talk about low-income seniors, seniors who rely on old age security and the guaranteed income supplement, which, across Canada, is hundreds of thousands of seniors, if not millions, including my father. Recently, in talking to our seniors critic, I learned that while your government increased, very modestly, the old age security payments, that increase resulted in people's guaranteed income supplement being clawed back.

Is that true? If so, how is that possible?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Let me just say, about our seniors, that one thing that was a priority for our government from when we first formed government was to support our seniors, to roll back Stephen Harper's decision to push retirement to 67 from 65, and to increase the support we offer our seniors, especially the most vulnerable. That has had an impact. We have had significant measurable reductions of Canadian seniors living in poverty.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

I have one more question, Minister, so could you speak specifically to that question?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

I want to put one other point on the record, which is that, this year, the Government of Canada, which means the people of Canada, will be spending $80 billion to support our seniors. I think that is a considerable sum that we should all be glad we are able to provide to seniors across the country and that has significantly been focused on our most vulnerable.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

It's really frustrating, Minister, that you didn't answer the question about the GIS being clawed back.

You spoke of the Harper record. One of the things the Harper government did was to bring in income splitting for senior couples, and this has put single seniors at a serious tax disadvantage. I wonder how your government can justify not adjusting the tax regime so that single seniors aren't paying $5,000 more tax for the same combined income as a senior couple.

Is this something you're aware of? Is it something that you plan to address?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Mr. Bachrach, I share your central concern that you've been expressing in these questions: that we need to do more to support all our seniors, especially the most vulnerable. I completely agree with you.

We are spending $80 billion this year to support our seniors, and our support has significantly, measurably reduced the number of seniors living in poverty. Of course, better is always possible, and within the constraints of a fiscally responsible plan—which we've been discussing at some length—I think all of us would agree that we would like to continue supporting our seniors.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you very much, Minister.

Mr. Perkins, the floor is yours.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My first question is for you, Minister Champagne, to follow up on your last statement.

Since we are dealing with supplementary estimates here—in other words, additional spending for your department—can you tell me how much is in these supplementary estimates for toner cartridge that was used to blank out 30,000 pages on the green slush fund?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Mr. Perkins, I'm always happy to come to the committee when you're here. I must say that this is the best gift I have before Christmas.

I know you. You're a man of good heart. You know that what we did was to comply with the requests of this committee to produce 29,000 pages. I know it's a lot of reading for Christmas, but I don't expect a Christmas card from you this year.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

It's not much reading, because it's all blanked out. You're of course getting a Christmas card from me, but it was all blanked out.

Minister Freeland, I have some sympathy for you, because for every budget you've presented, you've said that this is the guardrail, this is the deficit and we're not going beyond it, and then in every one you've missed it. Can you tell me who is telling you that you have to go through in the year after your deficit? Is it Mr. Carney or is it the Prime Minister?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

I share the view of my colleague, the industry minister, that you have a good heart, Mr. Perkins. Unfortunately, I have to correct and strongly disagree with your core assertion.

The fact is that, notwithstanding repeated Conservative attempts to muddy the waters, Canada has had the fastest fiscal consolidation in the G7 since the COVID recession. We have the lowest debt-to-GDP ratio. We have the lowest deficit. Markets are rewarding us for that with cheaper debt than the U.K. and the U.S. This is what a fiscally responsible plan is.

I would like to point out that we are on track to achieve a soft landing from the COVID recession more successfully than experts predicted at the peak of that recession, which was deeper than the Great Depression, and a much quicker recovery than Stephen Harper was able to deliver.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

The only thing that's off, Minister, is your target, because you never meet it.

I will go on to my next question, on the oil and gas cap. Did Finance—your department—do an economic analysis on what the impact of that cap would be on reducing the production in the oil and gas industry and thus on our economy?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

I'm very glad to have a question about the oil and gas industry, because one of the important infrastructure investments by our government is to complete the Trans Mountain pipeline, which is in service today. That is estimated, by the Bank of Canada, to be adding 0.25% to Canada's GDP. That was the result of an activist government that stepped in when the private sector could not get the job done.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

That's fair enough, Minister, but I notice that you didn't answer the question of whether or not the department—yes or no—did an economic analysis of the impact of that cap.

Answer quickly, if you could, because I have another question I need to ask you.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

No, let me be very clear. If the Conservatives are sincere in believing that the oil and gas industry contributes to the Canadian economy and to our national security, as I do, I would like to hear the Conservatives talk about the value that the Trans Mountain pipeline brings to our economy. I have not heard that a single time, and that shows extreme hypocrisy.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I take it that's a no, since you're refusing to answer the question.

Former Bank of Canada governor Stephen Poloz says that we're in a recession. You say that we're in a “vibecession”. Can you tell me what people are experiencing in a vibecession that's different from a recession?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

What I can say, Mr. Perkins, is that after a very challenging time with high inflation and high interest rates, Canada now has had inflation within the Bank of Canada's target range for 10 months. I am glad to be able to quote the Governor of the Bank of Canada, who said—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

The governor says that we're in a recession, so can you tell me—

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

—speaking to the Senate banking committee, “We are no longer trying to get inflation down. Government spending is not pushing against us getting inflation down. We have brought it down.” Again, that is not a Liberal or a Conservative. That is the independent governor of our central bank, and that is something we should all celebrate.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Are the two million people experiencing food banks—a record number under your government—experiencing the recession versus the vibecession differently, or are they in a recession when they cannot pay or get food?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

It is the height of hypocrisy for Conservatives to claim to care about the most vulnerable. Conservatives are the party that voted against a national school food program. Conservatives are the party—

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

You can't define the “vibecession” that you keep saying we're in.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

—that is voting against dental care.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

You deny that we're in a recession by calling it a “vibecession”—