Industry Committee on Dec. 9th, 2024

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Despite all of that, the emissions cap is going to blow a 1% hole in the Canadian economy, and it's going to cost government coffers a 1.3% drop in revenue.

Ms. Freeland, the carbon tax is causing a huge pain for consumers. The cost of everything is going up. Groceries are going to go up $800 next year for average people, and you are going to increase the carbon tax. Are you comfortable in continuing to increase the carbon tax on Canadians when they continue to go through a cost of living crisis, and it continues to go on day after day? Are you comfortable with that?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

The fact is that eight out of 10 Canadians get more back through the Canada carbon rebate. There is some really good news right now, which is that Canadian businesses are getting back $2.5 billion through the small business carbon rebate. That is money going directly to Canadian businesses, and it will help them at an important time.

[Jeremy Patzer, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

When this meeting started, the Canadian national debt was $1.24 trillion. By the time this meeting is over, just in the time of this meeting alone, an additional $10 million is going to be added onto that. Just today, an additional $110 million will be added onto the deficit, and that's without you spending any money, Minister. It's a by-product of the reckless spending by your government.

Are you comfortable with that much extra debt being added onto the national debt, and for my kids, my grandkids and the next generations to be saddled with that before they even hit the economy? Are you comfortable with that?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

What I am not comfortable with is misleading statements about the true state of Canada's public finances. The reality is that our public finances are sustainable. That is the judgment of the markets. That is the judgment of the Parliamentary Budget Officer. Our debt-to-GDP ratio is on a downward path. That is the crucial measure.

I want to be very clear that if the Conservatives are proposing cuts and austerity—cuts to health care, cuts to dental care, cuts to early learning and child care—that is a recipe for failure and austerity for Canada and Canadians. That is a recipe for hurting people and for hurting our economy.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you, Madam Minister.

Thank you, Mr. Patzer.

MP Gaheer, the floor is yours.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Ministers, thank you for appearing. I apologize that I'm not there in person. My flight got cancelled today.

Minister Champagne, we know that the work of Parliament has been long delayed because of the Conservative filibuster. Now, with supplementary estimates on the table, we're having to face very difficult truths about what's at stake if we don't pass these in time.

I appreciate the conversations I've had with students in my riding. I suppose they're on my mind when considering that your department directly awards funding and research awards to graduate and post-doctoral students. Will the students be affected by delays in passing the supplementary estimates, and if so, how?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I just want to say thank you for a very significant question. For Canadians who are watching at home, that is one of the most crucial questions.

On the filibuster we've seen by the Conservatives, you have to call it what it is: You're really filibustering your own motion. I think in history, people will remember that time. You're filibustering your own motion for two months, after the government tendered more than 20,000 pages. That's a lot of reading for Christmas that I see the Conservative members are going to look at.

You're right that what it's doing is really—

[An hon. member]

[Inaudible—Editor]

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Honestly, Mr. Perkins, look at the young people when you walk in the street. Those graduate students, those researchers, those post-doc students, they're expecting what Minister Freeland and I have been working on. We have heard and you have heard, Mr. Perkins—I know you're a man with a good heart—from the students who came here and said that we need to really adjust the grants they're receiving.

The research of today is the economy of tomorrow. This is their future. These are our kids. These are our researchers and our students. When they asked us to give them a hand, we said that we heard them and that we were going to do that. Now, obviously—you would know that, Mr. Chair—we need to pass the estimates, because they're expecting that.

I'll give you another example that every Canadian should be worried about. That's Canadarm3. Canada is known around the world in space. The Canadarm is the flagship of our country. Everyone in the world knows of it. Our engineers and our scientists have been able to inspire the world. This depends on the supplementary estimates. Those are real things that affect people and their lives. I could go on and on. Imagine the new rover on the moon, Mr. Perkins. NASA depends on us for its lunar mission. Obviously, the supplementary estimates are key enablers of that. We need to make sure we're going to be able to answer that.

Let me give one final example. You'll love this one in particular. It's the Canadian AI safety institute. We were just in San Francisco with the world and with our American friends. You care a lot about the U.S. relationship. I know that. Think about that: We were just with them on the podium, Canada and the United States. We'll have the Canadian AI safety institute. We're going to work together.

Now, we will have to say that it depends on the supplementary estimates. Ask the Conservatives. Are they going to allow Parliament to function? Those are real things that have real impacts in the real world.

I think this is one of the most important questions we have had tonight. We do need to get back to business. Canadians, when they wake up in the morning and go to work, expect the same thing from everyone in this building. We do our part.

Mr. Perkins, I know you have a good heart. As I look at you and your colleagues, you need to do your part to make sure that Canadians who depend on this funding will get it on time for Christmas.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Great. Thank you, Minister.

With the time I have remaining, I wanted to ask you this: What's at stake for our colleges and universities if they lose trust in our ability to get them funding when they need it, reliably and promptly?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Mr. Gaheer, you're spot-on, as always.

There are five things that have been attracting investment in Canada. The first one is talent. We should be proud as Canadians that Canada is a magnet for talent. If you go to G7 meetings, immigration is one of the things that are still seen positively in Canada. This is a golden opportunity for us to attract talent. The second thing is the strength of the ecosystem that we have in the country. We have the critical minerals to make sure we'll lead the economy of the 21st century. We have renewable energy. We're the only G7 country with a free trade agreement with all G7 nations.

To your point, obviously, people can walk with their feet. These students who are looking are asking, “Am I going to go to Canada? Is it as promised?” We'd like to answer yes, but we'll need our Conservative friends, because we know they also care about the future. They care about Canada leading in the 21st century. They know that science is going to lead to innovation. They know that the science of today is the economy of tomorrow.

For all of those Canadians who are watching, I hope they can impress on their MPs on the Conservative bench to do the right thing for Canada, do the right thing for their kids and do the right thing for Canada to continue to lead in the 21st century.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you very much, Mr. Minister.

Mr. Savard‑Tremblay, you have the floor.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Minister, I imagine you've heard vaguely about the possibility of the United States imposing new tariffs. Of course, we already impose customs duties in certain sectors, such as the import of wood. It's not theoretical in this case.

During your last visit to the committee, you said you wanted to work with businesses to foster innovation as a way out of the crisis. I don't know whether the industry should produce its own innovation plan, or whether we should innovate in terms of solutions. One doesn't exclude the other.

Where are we at now? Can we expect an announcement on support for Quebec's forestry industry through an emergency program? If so, when might that happen?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Mr. Savard‑Tremblay, thank you for the question. We know that the forestry sector is important.

I represent a region where the forestry industry plays a vital role not only for employment, but also for economic development. At my last appearance, I said I wanted Canada to turn the corner on innovation in the forestry sector.

For example, Canada drew a lot of inspiration from Finland's practices on the various ways of using wood fibre, of which there are many. Back home, at one time, people cut down trees and often laid them down in the Saint-Maurice River. The paper mills would then do the processing.

I recently met with representatives of the Kruger paper mill. They proposed a very innovative project to replace a synthetic fibre with a wood-based fibre.

I'm seeing more and more innovative projects. I'm thinking of Groupe Rémabec, for example, which had an interesting project in the area of biofuels.

We're seeing that, in the forestry sector, new ways of using the forest are being considered not only in Quebec, but also across the country. We have to remember that this is one of our renewable resources.

Clearly, sound forest management is essential. We are working with those in charge of the forestry sector, and I can tell you that projects are under way.

Mr. Savard‑Tremblay, I'm like you. I'm a man of action. I would like things to be done quickly. Rest assured that we are working hand in hand with forestry industry stakeholders.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

What would that shift look like?

Is it investment in the processing sector? Should we increase the use of wood in domestic construction?

What can we expect?

We've talked about amounts of money, but people in the industry aren't seeing any yet.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

You have a lot of good ideas, Mr. Savard‑Tremblay.

First, as you said, why not use more wood in construction in Canada? The housing stock is being rebuilt. You may know that wood is being used in Vancouver for the construction of buildings of up to six storeys. Wood was even used on a university campus to build residences for students. It's important to innovate.

Your analysis is good, as always, Mr. Savard‑Tremblay. We have to find new avenues. Construction is one example. I also mentioned the use of biofuels. The project Kruger submitted to me was aimed at replacing a chemical fibre—I won't go into all the details today, publicly—which opened up a multi-billion dollar market. Opening up new markets with new products guarantees jobs in the forestry sector.

My colleague Ms. Freeland provided relevant answers to the Conservatives. The government makes investments—it has made a lot of investments—and it gets a good return on investment. The minister and I can attest to that. We've transformed the industrial landscape of the country.

My office is in the C. D. Howe Building. I read the book written by this politician, Mr. C. D. Howe. I understood the power of an industrial policy whose objective is to transform things.

I want to do in forestry what's been done in auto, what's been done in biomanufacturing and what's been done in critical minerals. I know that, with you, we'll be able to find solutions that will enable the forestry sector to be part of the major sectors that will bring us prosperity in the 21^st century.

[Simon-Pierre Savard-Tremblay, Bloc, Saint-Hyacinthe—Bagot, QC]

I think we're in a crisis situation. In a competitive context, interest is often used to describe the need for an industry to modernize and turn to innovation.

Canada is on the brink. We've been hit with customs tariffs, countervailing duties and punitive tariffs for 40 years. In the end, it became a kind of background noise in the news. In the United States, it's a bipartisan consensus. We're really at a stage where urgent action is needed, even though there are some great projects, and things are being proposed.

Earlier, I told you not to talk to me about investment, but about strategy. Now I'm going to ask you to talk about investment instead.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I like it when you repeat my words, Mr. Savard‑Tremblay.

I agree with you. However, I will say that there are investments, but there's also a strategy to support them. The government has always been there for the forestry industry. I think my colleagues, including the Minister of Finance, Ms. Freeland, have always understood the importance of this. For us too, it's a matter of land use. Forestry relies heavily on processing, which is done in rural parts of the country. However, we want to have strong regions.

As I told you, investments are being studied, but I would also say that the government has always been there for workers. It has always stepped up to make sure it was there for them.

What I also like about your analysis is that it shows the need to look further. You're right that this conflict has been going on for many years. I spoke to a former prime minister who was there for a long time, and he was telling me that the conflict has probably been going on for decades. What we need to do now is develop markets and products and secure a future for our forestry workers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you very much, Mr. Minister.

Mr. Bachrach, the floor is yours. You have five minutes.

[Taylor Bachrach, NDP, Skeena—Bulkley Valley, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Morrice has been watching and listening intently, and I think it would only be fair to give him a couple of minutes to ask a question.

Mr. Morrice, I'll give you two minutes, and then if you could pass it back to me, that would be appreciated.

[Mike Morrice, Green, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Bachrach.

Mr. Chair, let it be known that this is an MP who's not only effective but kind, too. Thank you.

I have two priorities that I'd like to raise with Minister Freeland.

The first is with respect to and on behalf of folks with disabilities, who, as you know, are disproportionately living in poverty across the country. Your government announced 6.3 billion dollars' worth of investments recently, the majority of which actually exclude them directly. This is when we know that with slightly more, we could actually lift about 278 folks with disabilities out of poverty. It comes on the heels of a Canada disability benefit that was not what was promised. There are a lot of folks who are livid in my community who have spoken with me.

What would you say, Minister Freeland, to folks with disabilities who are so deeply disappointed?

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

Well, look, I would first say thank you to you for speaking to the most vulnerable in your own community. I think that is part of the job that we all need to do.

Second, I will say that the Canada disability benefit is an important step. That is a step that only our federal government has taken. I hope that all of us around this table will be glad to be MPs at a time when the government, the country, is taking this important step.

I will say to everyone who voted against our budget that you were voting against this important step forward for the most vulnerable among us.

[Mike Morrice, Green, Kitchener Centre, ON]

Thank you, Minister Freeland.

I think the reality, though, is that when the folks you're trying to help are telling your government that they're so disappointed, it might not be exactly as advertised. However, I respect that we might have a difference of opinion there.

I want to turn to something that I think we might agree on. This is with respect to the housing crisis.

Mr. Chair, if you could interrupt me when there are two and a half minutes left, I will turn it back to Mr. Bachrach.

As you know, I've been advocating with respect to Habitat for Humanity. They were left out of the HST exemption that was provided for for-profit developers of rental housing around this time last year. It's a significant issue for them. With this, they could build additional affordable homes. We could fund it by getting rid of the tax exemption for real estate investment trusts, which are actually profiteering from the housing crisis. I sent you a letter about it on October 25. I raised it in question period. I got a response back from Minister Fraser, and he said to speak with you.

I'd like to understand more whether you are considering this. I know you won't reveal what's in the fall economic statement, but I would like to hear more with respect to this tax exemption for Habitat for Humanity to build more affordable homes.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Give a brief answer, please.

[Chrystia Freeland, Liberal, University—Rosedale, ON]

I'll just say thank you for your work on it. I'm aware of your advocacy. I'm aware of the issue. As you correctly foresaw, I have nothing to announce on that today.