Industry Committee on May 6th, 2022

[Gérard Deltell, Conservative, Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I will reiterate what you said in your introduction earlier: we have very prestigious and relevant guests today, as usual. However, this time, it is even more so. You, the witnesses, are proof of that today.

Mr. Kurland, I will speak to you first. I know that you said you do not want to get into politics. However, you noted something that is very important: immigration.

I am currently at my constituency office, as is our chair, Mr. Masse and Mr. Williams. There are several of us at our constituency offices on this Friday. I am sure that my honourable members will tell you the same thing: we have a lot of new immigration cases every day.

I would like to hear from you about the measures that could be suggested to the government to make the system much more flexible and effective, and to allow more people from around the world to become Canadians.

[Richard Kurland]

First, we found $40 million that the immigration department has taken from small and medium-sized businesses. As you know, it costs $230 to make an offer of employment to a foreign worker. There's a little problem, however. Internal department financial records admit there's a consistent multi-year violation of the Financial Administration Act of this country. They're making a profit and not disclosing it to Parliament. It violates section 19.1 of the Financial Administration Act.

Resources are available if they can be identified. You have to overcome the culture of secrecy and lack of transparency. That's job one.

When you know, when you lift the top off the ant farm and have a peek inside, that's when you can fix things. For example, small and medium-sized businesses, employers and business owners, can pre-register their business with the immigration authorities to cut down delays and save government—the taxpayer—money. You can do the same for individuals who may wish at some point in the future to visit Canada or emigrate to Canada. Check them out. Do the background security check up front, independent of an immigration application so that they're pre-approved. Then you can instantly convert into a seamless transaction a business owner's desire in Canada to bring in a foreign worker with minimal delay, all paid by the foreign worker, all paid by the business owner, not the taxpayer. This would free up more resources so that you could adequately finance the operations of the immigration department.

There are other things. Start to use more technology, more online technology. What happened? The immigration department was one of the only departments in the Government of Canada capable of delivering service during COVID because of the Syrian refugee dossier. In order to bring in 40,000 people quickly, information technology was changed and the way of doing business in immigration was changed to expedite and facilitate, at lower cost, the immigration operations. When COVID hit, IRCC was there, prepared for off-site work.

More importantly for the purpose of today, start sharing the tools with the provinces. Why would you have businesses and individuals duplicate information upload? It's the same 60 questions. Duplicate it at the provincial and federal levels. If the jurisdiction is shared constitutionally, so too should the IT programs. Lastly, by doing that you facilitate enforcement. No one likes to talk about immigration enforcement, but by having that tool you deter bad people from doing bad things. It's a little high level, but it's that simple.

Overall, if I had to recommend something, it would be to have a watchdog. Where is the watchdog over IRCC? We have it for others like the RCMP and our intelligence agencies. Where is the immigration watchdog? That watchdog should have access to the government operational information, the databases, and we'll eliminate the monopoly held by the bureaucrats within IRCC and force independent thought, efficiency and transparency. We need a watchdog.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you very much, Mr. Kurland and Mr. Deltell.

We're now going to Mr. Dong for five minutes.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Thank you very much, Chair.

I want to welcome all of the witnesses who have come here today. My first question will be for Ms. van den Berg.

Ms. van den Berg, thank you very much for your input. You mentioned that the restaurants want to see less government intervention. They want to perhaps see less of an increase in or to have a freeze on CPP increases. I think you mentioned there's a new policy, but in my recollection it's just to index the CPP to inflation and the employee and the employer both pay a portion.

Can you clarify your statement about a “do no harm” policy? Do you mean that you want less government stepping in and telling the restaurants what to do or getting involved at all with restaurant owners? Can you just clarify that?

[Lauren van den Berg]

Yes, absolutely.

When we talk about a “do no harm” approach, we mean specifically in relation to taxes, fees and red tape, in order to create the best possible conditions for recovery. Frankly, after more than two years of losing money or barely breaking even, food service operations need a government to take a “do no harm” approach, which would include a whole-of-society approach to single-use items, one that's built on evidence-based policies and consistent standards across jurisdictions—

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Thank you. I'm sorry. I don't mean to be rude, but I have very limited time. I have another question for you.

During COVID and the two years of the wage and rent subsidies, plus CEBA programs, I think the federal government directly spent—I don't have the figure with me—in the neighbourhood of $20 billion. I might be wrong. I can correct the record later on, but it was in that range of billions of dollars to support small and medium-sized businesses.

Can you speak to the importance of that? You talk about these businesses barely sustaining themselves and surviving for two years. Also, my follow-up question to that is whether you know of any other country in the world that has had similar programs to support SMEs through the pandemic?

[Lauren van den Berg]

Sure. I'll go as fast as I can.

The federal support programs were absolutely 100% crucial to our survival. Nine out of 10 food services' businesses relied on, for example, the wage and rent support subsidies to help them survive the pandemic. It was absolutely crucial for us to even make it as far as we did, and it was thanks to these programs.

The subsidies were of particular use and utility to us because taking out loans to pay down loans is the worst kind of snake eating its own tail, which is why so many businesses are now facing that mountain of debt I spoke of.

To my knowledge, some countries have instituted similar loan repayment policies. I wouldn't be able to speak to the percentages of subsidies offered. I will, though, mention that other jurisdictions have invested in economic revival, demonstrating first and foremost how great it is to go out and eat in a restaurant again. That type of intangible leadership is something that we've seen percolate in other countries across the world.

I welcome you all to go to sit on a patio again.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

That's very helpful. Thank you.

Later on, if you could come up with a list of countries and the various programs you think might be helpful—

[Lauren van den Berg]

Absolutely.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

—please submit it to the committee for information.

I think you talked about the importance of tourism just now. If you compare month-to-month sales, we are heading into a very important phase of recovery that has a lot to do with tourism. If you have any suggestions about what the federal government should do to boost our tourism—we're all waiting for the peak—that would be very helpful as well. Thank you very much.

I want to move on to Mr. Kurland.

According to StatsCan, in March 2022, we saw a record low unemployment rate of 5.3%, However, it's 6.1% for visible minorities and 4.5% for non-visible minorities, with Black unemployment at 8.4% and Arab unemployment at 8.2%, both of which are high rates. Can you speak to that and give us some of your thoughts on how we can curb that?

There is a requirement to have Canadian experience. Is is true that visible minorities are discriminated against in the job market today?

[Richard Kurland]

There is no doubt that there is variation in unemployment rates based on those characteristics. That exists all across the country, but not in the same measures.

In British Columbia, for example, where we have the highest rate of foreign-born in the B.C. population compared with any other province, it's not nearly as bad. The trend, however, is positive. It is positive because Canada's young pool of immigrant families is integrating in the educational system. These immigrants grow up here. They rub elbows here. The result is that employer decisions are made by employers who come from those very families.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

That's right. They create job opportunities for Canada as well.

Do you have any suggestions or recommendations for the government—

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Mr. Dong, I'm afraid that's going to be a question for a colleague to ask because we're out of time.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Okay. Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

I will move now to Mr. Lemire for two and a half minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As we know, the labour shortage is affecting all industries, and even Service Canada. As a result, there are very significant delays in processing in almost all industries, particularly in processing labour market impact assessments, or LMIAs.

In that context, it must be particularly frustrating for a restaurant owner, for example, to need to show that there is a labour shortage, as the restaurant needs to be managed and there is no time for completing paperwork.

Ms. van den Berg, in the current context, would it not be appropriate to cancel, or suspend, LMIA applications, given that they involve an administrative process that exacerbates wait times and, ultimately, prevents foreign labour from contributing to the productivity of our restaurants?

[Lauren van den Berg]

Absolutely, yes please. Let's do this yesterday.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you very much.

I will ask another question of Mr. Kurland.

In the current context, would it be good to find a very simple solution to the federal government's needless and redundant processes?

On the one hand, the federal government could handle the security aspect, including biometric data. This is an important element, in my opinion.

On the other hand, as you mentioned, each province should be treated fairly, but at the same time, I do not think that we should level down. As a result, shouldn't the Quebec government be given responsibility for immigration, since the current problem is related to labour, which is a provincial jurisdiction? Shouldn't the Quebec government then be allowed to do what it wants, namely the regionalization of immigration? This would also allow Quebec's regions to access the labour needed for their businesses.

[Richard Kurland]

Yes, you are absolutely right.

You know, I've been following this for over three decades. Quebec has been a leader, if not the leader, in successful implementation and creation of immigration policy that benefits not just the Quebec region but also the neighbouring regions via spillover effects. Other provinces like Alberta and British Columbia are next in line. They respond to their immigration, labour and business needs as well.

Here's the thing. If Quebec is doing it well, if not perfectly well, why are we layering and adding unnecessary levels of bureaucracy, wasting taxpayer dollars, slowing down processes and delaying business needs, which hurts competition? It doesn't make sense.

Take a risk. Cut out labour market impact assessments if Quebec's already doing this. If you don't want the whole pie, take a little slice. Test it out for a year, compare the results, and then make that educated decision to do away with labour market impact assessments when it comes to the Quebec region. It's already being done. Stop it, Ottawa, please.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

It is particularly shocking that, due to delays in processing at the federal level, 51,000 skilled workers are waiting to be admitted to Quebec.

Thank you very much, Mr. Kurland.

[Richard Kurland]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you, Mr. Lemire.

Mr. Masse, you now have the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thanks.

I'll turn it over to Ms. Hearn and Mr. Larouche to make comments on my previous question with regard to the Competition Bureau.

[Dr. Pierre Larouche]

Thank you. Yes, I was going to say, in response to the comments that were made, that the 30% cut that you alluded to is everywhere—it's Uber, Apple, Google. It's the usual commission for anything that goes on the platforms.

The reason we're more aggressively against platforms—and we see this worldwide—is that there's a feeling that their innovativeness has peaked. When you look at the documents emanating from all the authorities, they all said, “We love these firms” in the 2000s, but now they're no longer doing what they used to do. They're not the same firms. The situation that you see, that you were alluding to, with the fines and the size of the fines, I can tell you, from being close to people in practice everywhere, that the firms are essentially now dedicating their platforms' massive resources to litigating just about anything they can litigate. It's very difficult for the enforcement authorities. Not just our Competition Bureau but also the European Commission is having a hard time, even if it can impose billions of dollars or billions of euros in fines.

You mentioned in your remarks the problem that there's so much market power amassed in it that it enables the firms to raise prices. That's a general problem. We've been relatively lax—actually, too lax—in merger control over the past decades, and we have markets everywhere that are fairly concentrated. When they're fairly concentrated, then firms don't have to talk. They don't have to sit in a restaurant and agree on their conduct. They just pick out the signals. When there are only two or three other firms on the market, they can easily read what's going on and then they stick at the same level.

When DoorDash comes into a market and Uber is already there, they know how Uber works, and they know what Uber charges. They just charge the same. Why should they bother? It's very hard to fight this. None of the competition laws around the world have a good grip on this, but the immediate solutions are to strengthen merger control and then to have discoordination among the firms. It's easier when the markets are concentrated, but it's still not automatic. Usually the firms have to do something, so exchange information and communicate, and you have to go after these practices. For this, as well, we need to have legislation that is fairly broad that allows the bureau to find the problems.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I'll allow Ms. Bednar to get in quickly, because I have only two and a half minutes. I really appreciate this intervention. I know Ms. Hearn...but I'll go to Ms. Bednar because she had her hand up, if that's okay.