Again, I'm not the expert, but this information came out of talking to our members and surveying our members to better understand it.
Did the voluntary code of conduct work? They basically said that the voluntary code of conduct somewhat worked, in a sense that the fees were kept at the rate that they were supposed to be at voluntarily; however, the credit card companies and processors found other ways to charge for transactions.
Again, I'm happy to share with the committee afterwards a few of the tangible examples of where we're seeing that creep in terms of hidden fees.