Evidence of meeting #38 for Industry, Science and Technology in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was alberta.
A video is available from Parliament.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
Okay.
Ms. Heron, can you think of any federal legislation that was passed that impacted only the prairie provinces and did not have the support of any of the prairie provinces?
12:20 p.m.
President, Alberta Municipalities
I can't think of anything off the top of my head, but I would say that your previous—
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
12:20 p.m.
President, Alberta Municipalities
The support is important, yes, and I think we could get there easily with this bill, but I do agree with you that this bill should probably apply to every province in Canada, not just the west.
I think that in many ways—and the previous speaker might have mentioned it—we feel singled out through that process. I think there's a perception in Canada that the prairie provinces are not doing their part for a green economy, but I would disagree with that.
I would absolutely say that the entire country should be benefiting from this kind of framework. As for support and endorsement, I think this is a very little-known and little-understood bill that probably, with more education and consultation, could get support.
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
Thank you.
Mr. Masterson, can you share with this committee some of the information on investments your industry has been making in clean technology and environmental stewardship without instructions from the federal government?
12:20 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Chemistry Industry Association of Canada
Well, again, I mentioned that there are a dozen projects currently under way in Alberta alone—
12:20 p.m.
Conservative
12:20 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Chemistry Industry Association of Canada
The Dow Fort Saskatchewan project would be one. It includes an ethylene cracker and derivatives. An ethylene cracker is a highly emissions-intensive project. It takes a lot of energy to crack ethane and turn it into ethylene and then on to the derivatives, the many, many derivatives that provide economic value—
12:20 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Chemistry Industry Association of Canada
The proposal is to basically have a circular hydrogen process. Ethylene cracking gives off hydrogen. Some of that is currently captured and used. The process would maximize that opportunity and also bring in other hydrogen so that we don't have to use natural gas. Any emissions would be captured and sequestered.
In phase two of that project, before 2030 Dow is proposing to go back and recapture the emissions from the existing facility in Fort Saskatchewan. That's all done under the auspices of the investment support programs being put in place in Alberta at this time.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
Is that without the federal instructions, basically? You said over a dozen—
12:25 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Chemistry Industry Association of Canada
Again, I would say that this is a proposal. The opportunity is to.... Since it does, we would hope, meet the federal government's expectations, there should be an interest in getting that to a final investment decision and building the infrastructure as soon as possible.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
But industry is taking the initiative and showing how to do it.
12:25 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Chemistry Industry Association of Canada
Absolutely: Shell is building a 50-megawatt solar farm that will largely power their chemical plant in Scotford. They also are greatly expanding their carbon capture activities, as Cathy mentioned.
We talk a lot about hydrogen, but these hydrogen projects that are proposed in western Canada.... Because you're so far from the customer, if the customer is in Asia, you're talking about turning the natural gas not into hydrogen but into methanol or ammonia, which then will be shipped to Asia and other markets and used as ammonia fuel, let's call it, or methanol fuel, which has a very high hydrogen content.
Make no mistake: These are chemical-producing facilities, and I'm sure the investors are going to be looking at what the base case is for selling these commodities as methanol or ammonia if there isn't a market that pays for hydrogen fuel.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
It's great to hear that there's so much activity without federal instructions.
12:25 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Chemistry Industry Association of Canada
Here's one last one. To get back to feedstock switching, Imperial is proposing a very large biodiesel facility in Strathcona, just outside of Edmonton.
12:25 p.m.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Chemistry Industry Association of Canada
I could go on with a whole list, if you want. It's a long list.
12:25 p.m.
Conservative
Dan Mazier Conservative Dauphin—Swan River—Neepawa, MB
That's great to hear.
Ms. Heron, how important is consultation and obtaining support from stakeholders in the work done by you and your organization?
12:25 p.m.
President, Alberta Municipalities
Our organization doesn't do anything without getting appropriate consultation. I would see what we're doing right now as an important piece of this conversation. I said it earlier: We need to include the municipalities at that level of consultation. We always talk about the indigenous communities and the private sector, but it is the mayors and councillors who are getting the feedback about whether we're going to have nuclear in our backyard or not. Those kinds of questions are in Albertans' minds right now.
We have the insight into what people want, so I really think you need to be in consultation with not just me as the president of an association but also the individual mayors across Alberta and the Prairies.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Joël Lightbound
Thank you.
I'll turn the floor over to Ms. Lapointe for six minutes.
12:25 p.m.
Liberal
Viviane LaPointe Liberal Sudbury, ON
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. McGowan, I could relate to a lot of the things you were saying. I'm from Sudbury, and I can tell you that often northern Ontario does not feel like its unique needs of a vast geography or dispersed population are in any way reflected in decisions made out of Queen's Park.
I believe your introductory remarks were critically important for future success. I would like to give you the floor to tell us more about your experiences and to hear more on your suggestions on how we can encourage unreceptive and impeding leaders to work together to create that clean energy future.
12:25 p.m.
President, Alberta Federation of Labour
Thanks very much for the question.
That's the reason I'm here and the reason that we at the Alberta Federation of Labour support this particular piece of legislation. It's because it will provide a platform for consultation. That's what excites me most about it.
Contrary to what we heard from one of the other committee members, we should not criticize the author of this bill for not consulting widely on a bill about consultation. What he's trying to do—and I think what will happen if this bill is passed—is create a platform for discussion, which is critically important, because in the west, the conversation has been dominated by loud, angry voices that have crowded out all other discussion.
As I mentioned in my opening remarks, there is a large and broad coalition of groups and individuals in Alberta who want to see our province, and western Canada in general, address the threats that are presented by the unfolding global energy transition but also embrace the opportunities, because there are many. My colleague next to me, Mr. Masterson, has identified a few in the petrochemical sector, but there are many others as well.
From our perspective, in order to get to that destination of creating a more diversified economy, addressing the threats of the global energy transition, retooling and pivoting our economy in western Canada and in Alberta in particular, and to address this changing global economy, we need to put all the ideas on the table, but unfortunately those ideas have been crowded out by loud political discussions led by Conservative politicians, for the record. Many of you may have heard what we're up against. As I was speaking, there was noise being made by the Conservative members on this committee. This is what we deal with every day.
There's a difference between what's happening in here—constructive conversation—and what's happening out there. What's happening out there, especially in western Canada, is that anyone who doesn't agree with “my province, do or die” or “my industry, do or die”, and who has a nuanced perspective on how we can transform our economy to maintain prosperity in a changing world is demonized. We're shut out. That has to end. I think very strongly that creating a platform and a framework for discussion like the one envisioned by this legislation is exactly what we need.
Your colleague talked about consultation. Let's create a platform for consultation, so that the voices that have been drowned out will finally have a place to be heard.
Just last week, we at the Federation of Labour unveiled a 90-page blueprint for pivoting the Alberta economy. I think it's significant that it's very similar to suggestions being put forward by the Alberta business community, and the fact that we're all singing from a very similar song sheet suggests to me that we're on to something. I've shared the report with the committee clerk. I would encourage all members of the committee to take a look at it.
This cartoonish debate of “are you for us or against us?” and "are you with us or against us?” is not constructive. That's why I think it's really important for us to create platforms like the one contemplated by this legislation. It's so that all these other western voices, like those of the people you're hearing today—like Mayor Heron and Mr. Masterson—people from the business community, the labour community, the indigenous community....
We're Albertans too. Frankly, I've had it with these loud voices from the conservative right, pretending that they speak for all western Canadians. They do not.
12:30 p.m.
Liberal
Viviane LaPointe Liberal Sudbury, ON
There was an appearance of Mr. Raymond Orb at this committee on October 6. He's the president of the Saskatchewan Association of Rural Municipalities, and he expressed concern about the bill, saying that it assumes that the interests of all those residing in these provinces are the same, and that this assumption simply isn't going to work. Issues facing rural Saskatchewan are unique to rural Saskatchewan.
I would agree, and I think some of the concerns you're expressing about everyone's unique and specific needs need to be included. What considerations do you think the bill could include to ensure that this is the outcome?