Industry Committee on Oct. 20th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Unfortunately, we can't hear him. Hopefully we can get back to him at a later time.

We're out of time, Mrs. Wagantall.

We'll try to figure out the sound issue and get back to you in another round of questions.

Thank you very much.

We now go to Mr. Gaheer for six minutes.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Thank you, Chair. Thank you to all the witnesses for making time for the committee.

My questions are for Dr. Wowk.

I was actually quite surprised by this testimony today. When someone in my shoes thinks about the beef industry, it doesn't really come across as a very green industry.

Could you maybe talk about some of the steps that the industry has taken, maybe over the last five or 10 years, to become more green?

[Dr. Melanie Wowk]

Thank you.

I believe Tyler answered that question very well. We have done it through improved genetics, improved feed efficiency, improved grazing management and forages. We really have increased the amount of beef that we produce. In the last 20 years, we've produced much more beef on much less land using much less water.

I think that probably has been our biggest contributing factor to improving our environmental impact.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Great. Thank you.

You mentioned, I think, that 85% of the species on the grasslands are at risk. I understand that correlation isn't always causation, but is it that some of the farming practices themselves are leading to species and habitat loss?

[Dr. Melanie Wowk]

Definitely.

I think our point here is that the loss of the grasslands.... That's what those species rely on to survive. As those grasslands are shrinking, whether that be from farming, cultivating the land or urban spread, the amount of land that they are able to survive on has been reduced.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

As the socio-economic standing of the world increases, the demand for meat also increases. How do we reconcile that with saving habitat and saving species, but also an increase in demand that requires more resources, more land and more water?

What does the industry think about that?

[Dr. Melanie Wowk]

There actually is an increase in demand for animal products and animal protein across the world. As I said, we are continually trying to improve the amount of beef that we can produce with less land and less water.

The other thing is that the importance of having large grazing species is this: These wildlife species tend to congregate where our cattle are. Deer prefer to be on a pasture that has been grazed by cattle than to be on one where the grass is very old and hasn't been grazed. We have such a symbiotic relationship with wildlife. It can be difficult at times, because obviously they are often competing with our cattle for limited resources, but definitely we have a symbiotic relationship with wildlife.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

I saw a documentary that looked at how grazing happens in America and at the open ponds where defecation will go. How is the waste from the animals handled when you're concentrating so many animals in one spot? How is it handled in your province?

[Dr. Melanie Wowk]

As far as grazing is concerned, we have to be careful with where we graze. We can't put our animals on rivers or lakes or things like that. The manure as well as the urine from cattle act as mineral.... Urine provides nitrogen to the soil and many different benefits for the soil.

I think that question is probably more in regard to intensive livestock-type operations, where there is a larger amount of fecal matter, so I'll go to Dennis on that.

[Dennis Laycraft, Executive Vice-President, Canadian Cattle Association]

Thanks, Melanie.

As we look at the larger feeding operations, as you build those facilities, there's almost as much money spent on the actual landscaping of those operations as on the rest of the facilities. The drains are such that all the drainage will go directly in the lagoons, where that water is stored. Increasingly, we're starting now to see more biodigesters that are being built, where that will then be converted into some gas production, but you'll effectively be getting another strain of nutrients in the form of fertilizers that are coming out of it.

I will say that the other thing we're seeing a lot more is that there's a lot of work with Birds Canada and Ducks Unlimited. We're setting up solar water so that cattle are not actually going into the sloughs or the dugouts to drink but are going to that water. That also helps with the nesting cycle. A lot of joint projects like that are becoming very common, not just in the Prairies but across Canada.

[Iqwinder Gaheer, Liberal, Mississauga—Malton, ON]

Great.

Thank you so much.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you, Mr. Gaheer.

It's now Mr. Lemire's turn for six minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I, too, would like to acknowledge the fact that we have Rémy Trudel here. You may or may not know that he was the member of the National Assembly who represented Rouyn‑Noranda—Témiscamingue at one point in time. When I was a young activist, he was one of the first people whose influence helped shape the course of my life, opening the door to politics. He may be the reason why I am in this seat now.

Thank you, Mr. Trudel. I'd also like to thank your students for being with us and for being interested in the workings of the federal public administration.

Mr. Austin, you didn't necessarily come out against Bill C‑235. On the contrary, I think you see it as a good thing.

What are the biggest economic challenges facing the prairie provinces right now?

Would Bill C‑235 help you address those challenges. Why or why not?

[Dale Austin]

In my view, and I'll confine my comments to the energy sector, one of the main challenges on the prairies is looking for ways to make use of all forms of energy. This is not a situation where we are picking either-or. We are going to need all forms of energy into the future.

I believe the way it is presented in Bill C-235, to begin discussions about how that might be able to occur, is a very reasonable approach. In the confederation that we live in, the ability of the federal government to work with their provincial counterparts, with indigenous organizations and with industry will play a main role in whether or not this will be successful

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

What parts of Bill C‑235 should be reworked?

Witnesses have told us that the bill adds red tape and puts pressure on industry and business.

Do you agree with that?

[Dale Austin]

That's a difficult question, because, as I read the bill, there is a significant amount of consultation and discussion that is part of that in order to come to what would be a final conclusion. I think there are ways to manage the bureaucratic burden, if I can put it that way, provided that each of the participants—governments, industry and indigenous groups—goes into the discussion with the desire to have a successful outcome.

As with any bill where you're asking people to come together over the course of a number of years to pull together a framework, there are opportunities, frankly, to put it on a siding. But if each participant goes into it with their eyes open and with the objective to come out with a plan for a green economy, then I think that is perfectly manageable.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

You represent the natural resources sector, which falls under provincial jurisdiction.

Does the fact that the federal government is using this bill to try to play a key role in driving prairie economies concern you? It will mean more players are involved and possibly a more cumbersome regulatory process, which your industry would have to deal with.

[Dale Austin]

I don't believe that's the intention of the bill at all. I believe the intention of the bill is to work together to come up with a plan to have a green economy in the Prairies that is successful, that minimizes the economic impacts of, in our case, energy and resource development, and that increases the economic potential of the Prairies in the case of energy development.

If that is the objective of the bill, then I think that is a viable objective and one that we should be looking to attain.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

If I understand correctly, you view nuclear energy as a new green technology. That's in your brief.

Do I have that right?

[Dale Austin]

That is certainly what we believe as a company, that nuclear power must play a significant role in any transition to a green economy and that it will underpin the necessary electrification of those economies.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Are there any regulations or acts preventing you from leveraging nuclear energy expertise you wish was being used on the ground in the Prairies?

[Dale Austin]

I wouldn't say there are any that prevent it. Our nuclear regulator here in Canada, the Canadian Nuclear Safety Commission, is a world-class regulator. They do an excellent job of maintaining the safety of the nuclear system.

We are very closely watching the Impact Assessment Act and the implementation of that act by the agency in terms of timelines for developing new projects that, in our case, would potentially include new uranium mines in northern Saskatchewan and the amount of time that might take.

Are there regulations that are preventing it? I would say no, but we are watching very closely the amount of time that getting through that regulatory system might take.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

I'll be perfectly frank with you. Nuclear energy scares me a lot. We've seen quite a few nuclear disasters, and nuclear energy is not exactly well-regarded internationally.

I find the thought of more and more nuclear plants in Canada frightening, so what do you say to someone like me?

[Dale Austin]

I'm sorry that you're afraid of nuclear energy, frankly. It is, I think, a demonstrated, safe supplier of electricity around the world. Here in Ontario, where we are sitting, 60% of the electricity being generated is being generated by nuclear power.

As I mentioned in my remarks to Mrs. Wagantall, Canada has a long history of developing and producing nuclear energy, and we expect that to continue long into the future. We also believe that there is no path to net zero without nuclear power. We will require all forms of energy to get there, but nuclear energy has the potential to provide that clean, zero-emission baseload power that is required.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you very much.