Industry Committee on Oct. 31st, 2022

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you for your questions.

There are definitely concerns to be raised, depending on the product and what is permitted to circumvent a TPM. There are potential risks, such as health risks, safety risks, cybersecurity risks and privacy violation in the Copyright Act.

Most of the time, people won't think about the right of repair in the copyright context. However, in order to repair a product, you need access. Right now, from what I see, there's computer programming that is restricting access to allow any diagnostic repair or maintenance to be done.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

I just need to understand. Your thinking is that when the bill was originally designed, it did not pay enough attention to the right to repair and how quickly technology evolves. There are things that we learn on YouTube, simple things, and people are smarter nowadays about fixing things on their own.

I heard a lot of discussion about the automaker agreement. I remember the days of looking at how much it cost to buy a phone with a contract or without a contract. The major hurdle was that if you bought a phone without a contract, then you had to find somebody to unlock it if you had to travel somewhere else. Now we don't have this headache anymore.

I definitely see the benefit of what you're talking about. At the same time, I wonder if, in your view, there should be limitations as to the type of product or the type of industry, because obviously trained professionals are also a concern.

Maybe it's your vision that anyone can repair this or circumvent it. Is it only those technicians who receive some degree of training who are allowed to circumvent the TPM? What are your thoughts on that?

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

I would say that not anyone can make the repair. It does take an effort to learn and understand the skills and know what to do on certain products. Especially back in the day, cars did not have many electrical parts in them. People liked to get their hands dirty, get into a car and fix things. In those circumstances, yes.

YouTube allows us to learn more about DIY. There are areas where it's not recommended, such as taking the battery pack out of a Tesla and putting it into another car, for example. These are risky actions that I would say should be left to the professionals and technicians.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Then you believe that there should be some minimum requirement for whoever's performing this.

My last question has to do with CUSMA. A lot of people brought this up, so I want to hear your thoughts.

Should this amendment be passed and become law, would that decrease our competitiveness internationally, both in terms of competing with our American counterparts, as well as in the sense of CUSMA countries as a whole competing with the rest of the world?

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Right now under CUSMA, there are exceptions that prohibit the circumvention of TPM. There is definitely a lot more to look into so as not to have unintended consequences in our CUSMA agreement. At the same time, it also allows the opening of a new market where there are parts and aftermarket products that can be used, allowing the consumer to fix and even modify devices to obtain a better result.

[Han Dong, Liberal, Don Valley North, ON]

Okay.

During your research, what's your read on the—

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

I apologize for interrupting you, Mr. Dong, but your speaking time is over.

Mr. Lemire now has the floor for two and a half minutes.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Miao, what do you think about planned obsolescence? Have you looked into this matter or wanted to change some practices in order to extend the life of goods?

Are you in favour of labelling that would display a durability and repairability rating?

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Of course, I think we definitely need to look at the values that consumers are considering, such as how durable a product is. Any product nowadays definitely has an expected or desired performance in terms of its lifespan, and with planned obsolescence.... I can think of a great example right now. I'm sure most of us own an iPhone, and we know that an update can decrease its performance. These are computer programs that only the manufacturer can get access to in order to tweak them.

Another scenario I can think of is, as Mr. Vis had mentioned, when we are trying to do overrides or modifications to certain software to maximize certain performance aspects. Definitely, I think that should be looked into, and we should find ways to at least have a standard of quality or durability for a product in order for it to be sold to our Canadian consumers.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Since 2015, American regulation allows circumvention as required, under a TPM, to diagnose, repair or make minor modifications to a motor vehicle.

How does your bill compare to the American legislative measures?

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

It's very similar in context, I would say. These are different parts of the right-to-repair framework we have to consider. Coming back to my private member's bill, the Copyright Act was never intended to stop the circumvention of a TPM for repair purposes. It's important for us to consider this as well in any conversations surrounding the legislation.

[Sébastien Lemire, Bloc, Abitibi—Témiscamingue, QC]

Thank you.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you very much, Mr Lemire.

Please go ahead, Mr. Masse.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Do you anticipate that you'll also get support from young people and others who want to do technology creativity—not for profit, but to have the ability to actually explore and work on devices, some of them old, in many respects? We've seen frivolous lawsuits in the past put on youth for that.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Of course, and I think you brought up a very important point as well. What we're doing here right now with the right-to-repair framework is providing options for consumers to fix the product and not throw it away, which lessens the burden on our environment, which is something that our future generations would enjoy.

At the same time, young individuals right now are becoming more and more creative and innovative, and allowing them to have access to learn how to do the repairs or maintain a product allows better innovative ideas for a product, for example, and also maybe creates something new so that we can advance our technology.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you. Those are my questions, Mr. Chair.

I thank the member for that, because there are some that use frivolous lawsuits against young people when they're doing this type of work, and they're not doing it to create a profit for themselves. We've seen that in the past.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Thank you very much, MP Masse.

We'll move to Mr. Fast for five minutes.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Miao, for bringing this bill before us.

I want to return to the discussion of USMCA, or CUSMA, and our relationship to other trading partners around the world. Have you considered whether your bill complies not only with USMCA but also with the WIPO treaties, which effectively regulate the use of copyrighted property around the world?

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Thank you, member, for that question.

That part was not considered during my preparation of this private member's bill. However, with regard to the CUSMA right now, the Copyright Act provides three prohibitions on TPM circumvention activity. The first one would be the circumvention prohibition, the second is the service prohibition and the third is the device prohibition. However, there are categories that provide exceptions to these three TPM prohibitions in the agreement: law enforcement and national security, interoperability of computer programs, personal information, security, persons with perceptual disabilities, and radio apparatus.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

I'll very briefly interrupt you.

My question is specifically focused on our multilateral obligations. CUSMA, of course, is a trilateral agreement between Canada, Mexico and the U.S., but we have a whole bunch of trading partners all around the world under the WTO. Many of them have signed on to the WIPO treaties. Could I ask you to come back to this committee or at least provide us with additional information on whether we're in compliance with those treaties?

My next question has to do with warranties and goes back to points that a number of individuals around this table have already addressed in the discussion.

If I were advising an OEM on how to address this legislation, it would be to use warranties to circumvent the spirit and intent of your bill. Does this bill actually specifically address the use of warranties as a circumvention tool?

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

I would say warranties usually fall into a certain period of time. It's usually from one to 10 years, depending on the equipment investment.

At the same time, part of this bill gives consideration for an exception to allow circumvention through a third party to carry out repair services.

At the same time I feel that yes, this can be a consideration for making further amendments to the current bill.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

I'm glad to hear that.

I was just going to propose that you consider an amendment that would address warranties, specifically because I fully expect that the industry—the OEMs—will find a way of using long, extended warranties to ensure that the right of repair is circumvented and that third parties won't be able to do that work.

[Wilson Miao, Liberal, Richmond Centre, BC]

Maybe I can add a little bit on that topic.

If this bill does pass with the support I had previously, there is also further legislation that can be carried out through different provinces and territories across the nation or in relation to other legislation within the federal responsibility.

[Ed Fast, Conservative, Abbotsford, BC]

How much time do I have, Mr. Chair?