Industry Committee on Feb. 13th, 2023

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I'll say, I was not aware specifically of the City of Windsor's request. As a former infrastructure minister, I'm very sensitive to that because I used to manage the fund in my former capacity. I'm very well aware.

Like you said, not only did you say we did well, but I think we should all take pride as Canadians that we have renewed the mandates with all the automakers in Canada, and now we've been attracting the likes of Volkswagen to at least engage in a very serious discussion with us. There are LG and Stellantis, as you said, which will be somewhat transformational. Those are generational opportunities.

To your point about Windsor, Mr. Masse, I'm happy to take that back with colleagues and see how we can help because we want Windsor, which is the centre in many respects of our auto sector, to be able to thrive in this new economy. We're very committed to Windsor and the workers there.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

That's all I'm asking for now. This is infrastructure money that was allocated before. Your past is one of the reasons I wanted to raise it here. It's new. If it undermines the municipalities because of inflation costs with previously signed construction contracts.... I'll send you some information. It's just emerging, but it's critical because we can't keep talent, as you know. It's one of the biggest things.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I appreciate that.

You've been a good colleague in trying to achieve that.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I'm going to move over to Medicago. It highlights a problem that we had.

In Windsor, we had Nemak, which was in the automotive sector, and the previous minister, Minister Bains, provided some federal funding for them. They took the innovation and the money, and then they actually moved it to Mexico, including the plant.

What I'm worried about is whether in the current bill that you have, Bill C-34, there's actually going to be enough support in there to stop that from happening. The Nemak example is one for which basically we innovated new transmission equipment and then they moved it to Mexico. They moved all the jobs. They took our innovation. They took all of the work we had done. They laid off a bunch of workers. We lost that.

Medicago is a similar situation that's taking place here. What can you tell us? Is there an update on that?

How do we stop this from happening?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I'm not sure we can equate the two situations. I'm not familiar with the first one that you mentioned. In Medicago I can assure you, Mr. Masse, we're in solution mode. My first priority and everyone's priority should be to keep the jobs. We have 400 people, extremely talented people, in Quebec City.

The second thing is the facility, because we have amazing facilities that have been newly built. We want to protect that.

The third one is the IP. The thing about Medicago, and I've heard a lot of things, is that I think it's the first vaccine that has been approved in the last 20 years in Canada. It's a made-in-Canada vaccine, I should say. For me, this is quite significant. It's the first plant-based vaccine in the world. People look at Medicago today, but people should remember that when we did that at the time, as you remember, we wanted to invest in all the platforms of vaccines because no one knew exactly, at the time, which would work. Now, what I can tell you is that we're in solution mode. I spoke to the CEO of Mitsubishi Chemicals in Japan. I made sure to protect all our rights, but the focus as we speak today, my focus with the Government of Quebec and the mayor, is to protect jobs. It's about people.

Then I'll make sure that we have all our rights preserved, and we will retain our rights with respect to all sorts of arrangements we have. I want to thank my deputy, Simon Kennedy, because to your point, I think that our contribution agreements today have far more specificity in terms of protecting Canadian taxpayers with all the commitments they have to follow. Otherwise, we have recourse.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

What is our final liability with regard to the contributions we made and the vaccines we have to purchase or have not been made? What is our exposure at this point?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

At the time, you may know or not know, I shifted that. There was a time when we saw Medicago, like others, miss the window on COVID-19. The investment shifted not for COVID but for the future because of the interest in the plant-based. I spoke to the director general of the World Health Organization. If you talk to specialists, they say there's a lot of potential in a plant-based vaccine. The next big thing may need a plant-based vaccine.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

What's our number, though? What's our exposure on this?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

We're reviewing all the agreements we have, because at that time we shifted that to make sure that they would focus on the future, not on the past. What I can tell you today is that my focus is on the jobs. We have all the legal recourse. I can ensure you and Canadians. I spoke to the CEO of Mitsubishi in Japan. They will honour all their commitments to the Government of Canada and the Government of Quebec.

Priority number one is still the jobs.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

I would still like to know a number in terms of our exposure.

[The Chair, Liberal, Joël Lightbound]

Unfortunately, Mr. Masse, it will be for another round. Thank you.

We'll now turn to Mr. Williams for five minutes.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Thank you very much, Minister. It's nice to see you in the hot seat today.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I feel that every day is a hot seat, sir.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

We'd like to have you for two hours, though—maybe next time.

Minister, you have a good quote about competition. You say, “I will never waver in my commitment to promote competition and make wireless services more affordable for all Canadians.” We can agree on that much.

I've been very vocal. I feel there's been a competition failure in the divestiture of Freedom Mobile from the Rogers-Shaw merger. The point of that was that Rogers, the most expensive wireless carrier in the world, by the stats, and the number one market shareholder in Canada, was freely able, in buying an asset from Shaw, to control that divestiture and who it was going to sell it to. The fourth competitor was, of course, Vidéotron. Rogers did so without the approval and the remedy process from the Competition Bureau. Of course, we saw what happened in the tribunal.

What was more disturbing was that there were competitors that were trying to be involved in that deal, and they were shut out. Globalive and Distributel each offered almost $900 million more to buy that asset from Shaw Mobile, yet they were excluded as a whole.

When we had this committee and investigated that, there were a couple of alarming testimonies. Number one, through lobbyist registries, we found that you met with Rogers five times last year. ISED met 60 times with Rogers, yet Globalive and Distributel both claimed that they couldn't get a call or a meeting at all.

We found that when it came to NDAs that Rogers had signed, they would give a different one to Globalive than they gave to anyone else. They certainly weren't engaging with Globalive or others. The system seemed to be broken. When the competition for competitors of the divestiture came, it seemed like Rogers could just pick who it wanted to deal with or, more importantly, who it didn't want to deal with. If it came to Globalive or to Distributel, if it decided not to engage with them, the process was completely eliminated.

My first question to you, sir, is if you feel that process was fair in how that was handled.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I would say as the regulator that I would challenge the data you just presented. As the regulator, I'm very careful not to meet anyone personally when it comes to a matter that is in front of me as the regulator. I—

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

It's in the lobbyist registry.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I don't choose.... Yes, but they may specify who they met, because I can assure you I've never met in private with the CEO of Rogers. The only time I spoke to him was when we had this failure of Rogers and I had to intervene to protect the interests of Canadians. As a regulator, I'm very careful to make sure there is not only justice but the appearance of justice in everything we do. I can assure you of that.

As the regulator, the thing I would say, Mr. Williams—and you probably know the law—is that I don't choose the parties who come in front of me. The parties come in front of me. I'm the regulator. I'm not party to that. If they come to me—

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Do you think it's fair? My question was—

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

My point is that, as the regulator, I said no to the transfer of Shaw to Rogers. That is on the record. I don't choose the party. Now, the file that I have in front of me is Shaw wanting to transfer a licence spectrum to Vidéotron. That is what is in front of me today.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Minister, I'm going to contradict you here on just one thing. The CEO of Rogers did testify at this committee. This was his response to some of our members in testimony. He stated, “I'm walking you through the criteria that the minister laid out for us, as we work through those criteria in terms of having a balance sheet and having operating experience, but also, importantly, having a very credible path to 5G.”

The CEO of Rogers claimed that you gave him criteria with which you would approve the divestiture of Vidéotron. The CEO claimed that. What it seems to be, from his testimony—especially with the one criteria, “having a very credible path to 5G”—is that if your department stated that in the 60 meetings that were had or that you had in any discussions with him, that left only one competitor. The only competitor was Vidéotron. Globalive and Distributel at that point weren't involved.

Is it fair that this would have been set up? It seems to be that it was a secret deal. I know that you're the regulator. I know, at the end, what's great about this process is that you have the final say and you've stated that. Can we at least hear from your side that perhaps it was not a fair deal? Perhaps, as the regulator, you can say that maybe there's a way we can go back to the divestiture. There are better ways we can see more competitive processes, so that we have the best competitor—not a competitor that our largest telecommunication carrier selected full and outright.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Listen, I appreciate your question, and I appreciate the work of the committee. As a lawyer and a regulator in this matter, I'm very careful about how these things happen, because I do know a bit about how they should work in terms of making sure there are appropriate considerations given to all of that.

What I can tell you is that everything that I said, I said in public. In a sense, when I said that there would be conditions.... You remember, Mr. Williams, this came way before the Competition Tribunal. I laid down a number of conditions. Regardless of what the Competition Bureau would do at the Competition Tribunal, let me tell you what I would only consider. I would not allow the transfer of licences for anyone. I said they would have to keep it for at least 10 years, and that the rates that you were seeing would have to be applied to other provinces.

I can tell you in that, Mr. Williams—

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

Minister, I'm so sorry. There's only so much time.

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

Go ahead.

[Ryan Williams, Conservative, Bay of Quinte, ON]

The CEO of Rogers specifically said that one of your conditions was having a critical path to 5G.

Did you say that to the CEO, yes or no?

[François-Philippe Champagne, Liberal, Saint-Maurice—Champlain, QC]

I cannot comment about his testimony, but I can tell you the conditions that I put are public. All the comments that I made—