Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on March 20th, 2007

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

One of the things I was pleased to see is that you were talking about NGOs and other countries coming together, like-minded countries. I had suggested to this committee that we include labour in that group and that the dialogue actually report back to this committee. Earlier in remarks I heard what I thought was a comment that the dialogue taking place was too much hidden from the public and putting it on the map by having it at a public committee might be very helpful in changing the situation.

[Zhao Donghai]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Thank you, Mr. Marston.

Mr. Cotler, would you like to ask any questions?

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Maybe just one.

I do want to thank you for coming here and sharing your experience and your testimony with us.

I'm not sure the question I'm going to ask is one that the witness will be able to answer, but it has to do with the putting in place for some three years now of a Canada-China legal aid and community services project. I gather there are now model legal aid centres set up in four provinces in China. I'm wondering if the witness has any information--and I don't expect experience--about how these legal aid centres are working in helping to assist people to access justice?

[Zhao Donghai]

I'm sorry that I don't know any specifics in this regard, but I do know that China has received much assistance or aid in the areas of legal aid or cultural economics from western governments, including Canada.

I will do my best to answer any questions you may have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Mr. Khan.

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

I want to share my time with my colleague.

Thank you very much for being here, sir.

I have been to China, to seven cities and different provinces. China is growing, but it's also disheartening to know that we have human rights abuses.

My question, sir, is this. Outside the United Nations and outside other organizations, is there somebody like you--you're here before this committee--communicating with the countries that China deals with in trade or other things, whatever relations they have with countries such as Pakistan, India, and other parts of the world? Unfortunately, certain other countries they have relations with don't have stellar human rights records anyhow, but is there any other way you see that some influence can be brought upon China to act on the issue that we talked about?

[Zhao Donghai]

I believe there is influence when China deals with other countries. What I do think is that we need to change our mindset. China, meaning the Chinese government, thinks or considers everything in this regard of freedom or human rights. They use them as a way to just maintain their governance or their power.

For example, in the late seventies, when Deng Xiaoping started economic reforms and opening China to the outside world, people thought China was becoming more open and more civilized, but it was really a way for him to maintain his power or dictatorship. It was nothing different from what Mao did before.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Just briefly.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Just to return to the law, you said Canada is involved in providing aid to assist in the law, yet the law seems to be the thing that is not adhered to. The question it really comes down to is how you can encourage the adherence to law in another country.

I've seen that China has ratified several United Nations conventions. Would this not be a role, or does the United Nations play a role in that now, giving a kind of rights barometer, labour barometer, or legal barometer for various countries and institutions? Would that be a role the United Nations could play a part in, to give an annual assessment of various countries and how they're adhering to the conventions to which they're signatories? Would they have a role? Do they do it now?

[Zhao Donghai]

This is a more complicated question, because China is a member of the UN Security Council and it has its veto power. For example, in the case of Taiwan's secession, if Taiwan wants membership in the United Nations, or if Japan wants to be a Security Council member at the United Nations, China can veto it. But I know the UN can do something.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

If it's a complication with the United Nations, is there some--

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

I'm sorry, you're over your time in this round.

Madame St-Hilaire.

[Caroline St-Hilaire, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

I do not want to put you in an embarrassing position. Perhaps you simply cannot answer the question.

Should Canada go so far as to boycott products that violate trade rules, but particularly those in violation of human rights considerations?

[Zhao Donghai]

I want to express my own opinion here. It seems like a simple question, but it's very complex.

There should be a trade-off between responsibilities and economic benefits in this situation. It could hurt Canada's economic interests to boycott all imports from China, or to boycott the import of certain products from China. It would be ideal if we could be importing products from China while human rights situations were being improved in China.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Thank you.

If I may, Mr. Decheng, I have a couple of quick questions as well.

The time you spent in prison in China, was it in a Laogai camp?

[Zhao Donghai]

There are different names in China. There are prisons, and Laogai are camps.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Forced labour camps.

[Zhao Donghai]

)

Or labour education camps. Although they have many names, in essence they do the same thing; they treat prisoners badly and deprive them of their basic rights. But I was staying in a prison.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Were you ever the victim of corporal punishment? Were you ever tortured or physically assaulted?

[Zhao Donghai]

I can give you an example. I spent nine years in prison. The drinking water there was not filtered, and I developed kidney stones because of it. Later on, in the hospital, the doctor was shocked to see stones so hard. They were not easy to remove.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

But your friend and colleague Yu Dongyue was left prison-deranged. Why do you think that was?

[Zhao Donghai]

The case of Yu Dongyue is just one of many of those kinds of cases.

In 1991 Yu Dongyue was tortured, mentally and physically, by the wardens in the prison, and that caused his mental breakdown. Only after 14 years in prison was he released due to pressure from the outside world.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

To the best of your knowledge, were some of the young people who protested with you at Tiananmen Square killed?

[Zhao Donghai]

Yes. One person who stayed in prison with me was executed. Just before his execution, that morning, we went to the washroom and we were both handcuffed, and we used our hands to button each other's pants.

I feel very sorry to think about this. His name was Luo Hongjun.