Evidence of meeting #12 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was iranian.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Payam Akhavan  Faculty of Law, McGill University
Jared Genser  President, Freedom Now
Nazanin Afshin-Jam  Human Rights Activist - Stop Child Executions Campaign, As an Individual

12:25 p.m.

Human Rights Activist - Stop Child Executions Campaign, As an Individual

Nazanin Afshin-Jam

The thing is that you can't keep negotiating, as we've seen in Europe. They've been negotiating for years, and it only buys time.

On the fact that there is a nuclear program and there is the aggrandizement of this, we don't know for what reason, but we have to act quickly, and we can't leave it on the side. The people are again suffering under these human rights violations, and we have to act fast.

Personally speaking, if the governments of the world were to support a change for democracy, for example, students would rise up, as we saw in the October Revolution, the Velvet Revolution, the Rose Revolution, or the Orange Revolution. If all governments chose one day to say to the students of Iran, this is the one day—and we planned it and we helped them plan it—then they would get their freedom. I know this one hundred percent.

I know it probably sounds very juvenile to talk to government officials about this, and the way I'm speaking about it is not very diplomatic, but in a lot of the blogs the youth are almost waiting for this one day of uprising and taking over the regime.

It would probably be the easiest solution for me, but I'm sure Dr. Akhavan will have a lot to say about this.

March 27th, 2007 / 12:25 p.m.

Faculty of Law, McGill University

Prof. Payam Akhavan

In response to your question about the difference between the previous generation and the new generation largely born after the 1979 revolution, there is a book I read whose title captures very adequately the sentiment of this generation. The book is called Lipstick Jihad. The youth of Iran are launching their jihad through lipstick, through iPods, through weblogging, as Ms. Afshin-Jam explained, and through satellite television. I think there is an overwhelming desire on their part to lead normal lives, to be part of the international community—and the youth in Iran are very technologically savvy.

I should explain that our centre has issued highly detailed reports on the death of Zahra Kazemi and on the persecution of Baha'is in Iran, which we believe are part of a truth telling process. Just as we've had truth commissions in other societies, I think Iranian youth need to go through this transformation by knowing the truth of the crimes that have been committed, which the state-controlled media, of course, does not tell them.

We have a listserv of 40,000 people in Iran. We know for a fact that the 40,000 people we send these reports to then send them on to numerous other people, so there is this very informal but highly effective network.

Once certain truths and facts are made known and certain taboos are broken, this does have a profound effect in terms of emboldening people to ask for change.

In 1999 there was a student revolt in Iran, which could have been Iran's Velvet Revolution if it had been supported by President Khatami. One of the problems with this generation is its profound disillusionment. People are disillusioned because they believed in 1997 that President Khatami would finally deliver the goods and he didn't. We don't need to get into the reasons now, but the point is that the international community, just like the anti-apartheid movement, needs to inspire and encourage the youth that they are fighting for the right cause and will ultimately prevail.

In this respect, the indictment of Saeed Mortazavi, the symbol to most Iranian reformists of what is wrong with the regime, as it was he who threw hundreds of webloggers and journalists and dissidents into prison, would send the message that this seemingly untouchable, ominous figure is not untouchable and invulnerable after all. It would create tremendous encouragement among young people. These people need to understand that the international community stands in solidarity with them

But in more practical terms, one can once again engage them through track two diplomacy and encourage informal exchanges between Canadian civil society and Iranian civil society.

In terms of the diplomatic embargo, as I said earlier, I think it is a bad idea to sever the lines of communication. But the message has to be sent that we are not just going to talk to this narrow circle of people who happen to control the regime; we are also going to talk to the Iranian people, as they are also part of our diplomacy. And the message has to be sent that while we respect the legitimate rights of Iran as a regional power with its own aspirations, we will draw a line in the sand when it comes to human rights abuses and support of international terrorism.

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

Kevin Sorenson Conservative Crowfoot, AB

I have a very short follow-up to that.

When there are specific human rights violations in a country and people put pressure on the government to stand up for this individual in the country, there is a huge risk that they end up putting that individual at a greater risk, and maybe even their family at a greater risk. If all of a sudden the government is stepping up on certain infractions, is that a very real risk?

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Jason Kenney

I'll have to accept that as a rhetorical question, because we're four minutes over in this round.

You will have a chance to think about that and to work it into your response to Mr. Marston, who now has the floor.

12:30 p.m.

NDP

Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON

Thank you for the comprehensive testimony today. I believe when Canada speaks out, we are at our best.

I come from a labour background. Dialogue and negotiations are something that I've seen day to day, and they have been very effective. When you talk revolution, though, you think of Lech Walesa and Solidarnosc and the fact that they controlled the economy. It was by shutting down the economy that they were successful. I have trepidation about Iran at that level.

I heard you refer to accidents and payments for injury. I was in Saudi Arabia in 1979, working for the telephone company. If we ran over a Saudi by accident, we paid $30,000. If they ran over one of us, it was one riyal, which was 30¢. Of course, the Canadian dollar was worth more then.

I saw examples, too, of the nose-to-nose confrontational style that the fundamentalists had. In fact I was threatened with death by the chief of the secret police myself. In Saudi Arabia at that time, the mullahs were strengthened by what was happening in Iran, and there was a great fear in the regime that it would spread there.

I am going to quote something. I don't suggest that it is precise, but the Prophet, may peace be upon him, said that men go before women in all things. That is roughly the context. This was told to me by a person I worked with in Saudi Arabia. With that kind of view, can we really expect a return to equality for women in this country?

The other side is that with the terrible human rights record of this regime, would not a popular revolution be put down in a way similar to what happened in China?

12:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Jason Kenney

You said that if the president had supported the 1999 uprising, it could have succeeded, but don't forget that Zhao Ziyang supported the student uprising in Tiananmen Square 10 years prior to that, and all he got was house arrest for the rest of his life.

12:30 p.m.

Human Rights Activist - Stop Child Executions Campaign, As an Individual

Nazanin Afshin-Jam

Can we expect equality for men and women afterward? Definitely, one hundred per cent, because already the popular feeling is that there's equality between men and women. It is just that Iran right now is under sharia law, which spells out that there is no equality and that women can't become presidents or judges and...all the other facts I've mentioned.

The people want this, although it's not everybody; obviously some of the more fundamentalist religious people who live in the villages still think that men are greater than women.

But they've already lived this. They've already lived with equality between men and women. It is just in the last 27 years that it has been taken away from them. It is not a part of their being. As I was saying, in Saudi Arabia women have been repressed for hundreds of years, but men and women perceive themselves as equal, I think, in Iran.

12:35 p.m.

President, Freedom Now

Jared Genser

Let me add that I agree with Ms. Afshin-Jam completely. Unfortunately, Iran has seen some terrible swings in how it has been governed. The Shah was far beyond the people, from a secular perspective. He was seen as being excessive in his lifestyle and in his approach to the world, in a way that was embarrassing to many Iranians. At the same time, in order to suppress domestic dissent, he had a very firm grip on the SAVAK, on the secret police, to oppress people who opposed him. As a result of these things, the mullahs were able to take control after the Islamic revolution and go to the other end of the spectrum from an Islamic fundamentalist standpoint.

What I think isn't known as much is that back in 1979 there were various moderate elements within Iran that were struggling to be heard. Massoud Rajavi rallied 500,000 people in a soccer stadium in 1979, but ultimately the Mojahedin-e Khalq, one of the opposition groups that had been in prison under the Shah as well, alongside the mullahs, was unable to persuade the Iranian people to support their group.

Ultimately, from all the conversations I've had with Iranians and with Iranian Americans, I think the Iranian people want a more moderate middle. They want a moderate version of Islam, where they can have their lipstick jihad, as the book goes. They want to have a state that has the fundamental precepts of Islam respected and a state that isn't going so far as to impinge on the rights of people, but at the same time isn't so secular that they lose their Islamic identity. From what I hear, that is what most Iranians are seeking to achieve.

It's a question of how we in the west, as well as others in the Islamic world, are going to support those moderate elements within Iranian society that are seeking support. I know I personally am not going to persuade any Iranian to do anything, nor is the Government of Canada or the Government of the United States, frankly.

What we can do is support those Iranians in Iran who have a vision of the world that seeks to achieve equality. We can support them however we possibly can, in a way that will not get in their way of persuading the Iranian people, but in a way that will help them—for example, radio broadcasting in Farsi. Being able to have people broadcasting what is happening in the world into Iran in Farsi, so that people hear about the human rights abuses, they hear about the violations of human rights, so that they have the information they need to make decisions, and they hear about how Iran is being viewed by the rest of the world, is the kind of thing I think we can do to be supportive of the aspirations of the Iranian people.

12:35 p.m.

Faculty of Law, McGill University

Prof. Payam Akhavan

If I may briefly interject, we need to appreciate that the Islamic Middle East is a highly diverse society. The parallels between Saudi Arabia and Iran, with due respect, are quite inapposite. They are completely different societies. Saudi Arabia has a conservative brand of Islam. It's a society that was largely Bedouin some generations ago.

As Ms. Afshin-Jam explained, until the 1979 revolution, Iranian women included among themselves nuclear physicists, judges, politicians, and ministers. There was a 1967 Family Protection Act in Iran that essentially liberalized sharia law in terms of child custody and divorce. If you speak with Shirin Ebadi, the Nobel Prize laureate, you will see that what Iranian women have done since 1979 is try to go back piece by piece to where the law stood in 1967.

We should also understand the reality that Iranian women are at the forefront of the democratic movement. Of course, we all know about Shirin Ebadi, but there are many other women one can speak about. The fact that the government went out of its way to put all of these women in prison on International Women's Day is a sign of the ominous threat they represent to the patriarchal, autocratic structures they are putting in place.

The other mistake, I believe, is to look at Islam or any other culture as an artifact in a museum, something we study as if it is static or never changing. Islam, like any other religious or cultural system, is evolving. It's going through the dislocations of the transition from tradition to modernity.

In Europe in the 18th century, people were punished in the streets of Paris by being quartered by horses and by being impaled. Are we to say that is the authentic European tradition that we must preserve at all costs? That's absolute nonsense. In the same way, there is a doctrine of severability in constitutional law. We can sever parts of Islam that may have been appropriate a thousand years ago but which clearly are not appropriate today. There is a transcendent universal message that is more important in terms of understanding the core of those teachings.

In that respect, there is not a single immutable, incontestable interpretation of Islam. There are Islamic feminists who believe patriarchy is a completely man-made invention that has been imported into Islamic traditions, and then there are secular feminists who believe one shouldn't have to worry about Islam at all. So here is the multiplicity of voices, and we need to engage all of them.

On the Velvet Revolution question and whether it can be suppressed, yes, perhaps it can be, but only temporarily. The situation in China, of course, is considerably different. It has a population of 1.3 billion, and the question of control and stability understandably gives rise to a very different reality. In Iran, you don't have a population that is overwhelmingly rural. You have a very different reality.

The point is that at the end of the day, even if you can suppress political freedoms, the economic wants of the people cannot be suppressed, because most revolutions are ultimately about bread-and-butter issues. The government bureaucrat who wakes up in the morning in Tehran says, “I have to drive a taxi, work in a bakery, and sell things on the street to be able to afford my rent, while Mr. Rafsanjani lives in a magnificent palace and mansion in a revolution that was supposed to be about the poor people.”

At the end of the day, the fourth-largest exporter of oil in the world cannot provide a basic standard of living for its people. Increasing numbers of people are sinking into abject poverty, with some of the highest rates of drug abuse and prostitution. There are incredible social woes in Iran. It is a time bomb that is going to explode sooner or later, and it may not be because of lofty principles of human rights, but because you cannot govern a modern society based on some kind of incompetent and corrupt mullocracy.

There's one final point relating to what Mr. Sorenson said about worsening the situation through international attention. On the whole, I would say that is not the case. The case of the rescue of Nazanin from impending execution is a perfect case in point. Many other women in the position of Nazanin Fatehi were executed in Iran. The fact that she was not executed is solely because of the incredible international attention that was drawn to her cause.

For Ramin Jahanbegloo, initially there was concern that we should try quiet diplomacy in order not to exacerbate the situation. It became very clear, including to immediate members of his family, after quiet diplomacy did not work, that you have to publicize the situation. If the Canadian government had not publicized the situation, if the media had not publicized the situation, he could have had the fate of Zahra Kazemi. The fact that he was only subjected to psychological torture through prolonged solitary confinement, relatively speaking, is a success, because otherwise they would have broken his bones and extracted his fingernails, if I may be so gruesome. That is a reminder that international attention does work. It needs to be applied studiously with great forethought, but at the end of the day, silence is the worst possible option.

12:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Jason Kenney

Thank you very much.

Mr. Silva.

12:40 p.m.

Liberal

Mario Silva Liberal Davenport, ON

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. I want to thank the witnesses who are before this committee very much for their incredible work around this very important issue.

Mr. Chair, I have spoken a number of times in Parliament in relation to the incredible and appalling human rights crisis that is taking place in Iran, the appalling conditions, and the situation of execution of minors, the stoning of women. A few days ago I spoke about the two very brave women and several other brave women in Iran who led that Women's Day protest against the stoning of women. They are incredible figures, and there are incredibly courageous people in Iran. I salute all of them.

The more I've learned about Iran and its history, and I've had an opportunity to meet many people in my riding of Davenport who come from a diaspora...I am extremely fascinated by their incredibly rich culture. They are incredibly talented people who unfortunately had to seek refuge all over the world because of the repressive regime they were facing in their country.

We have to do our best for those people, to make sure we work with them and bring about democratic reforms respecting the international rule of law and also human rights.

I have a motion at this time that I believe will be acceptable to all members of this committee. I move:

Be it resolved that the Government of Canada should launch a criminal investigation into the involvement of Iranian Prosecutor General Saeed Mortazavi in the torture and murder of the Canadian citizen Zahra Kazemi, pursuant to section 269.1 and of 3.7(d) of the Criminal Code, and that this investigation form the basis of an international indictment of Saeed Mortazavi for these crimes.

Mr. Chair, as you know, and as certain members of the committee are aware, the Government of Canada did issue an Interpol arrest warrant for Saeed Mortazavi some time ago, but unfortunately it was not followed through.

We hope with this particular motion to provide some teeth and be able to move forward with this very important and critical issue.

Once again, my sincere congratulations to all those who came forward, because we were very impressed with the witnesses we had today.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Jason Kenney

I will accept it as a notice of motion. We can consider whether we want to waive the advance notice requirement when we move into committee business, but insofar as you've read that, is there any comment on that motion from anyone on the panel?

12:45 p.m.

Faculty of Law, McGill University

Prof. Payam Akhavan

My only comment to the honourable member is that I salute you. This is a great moment for Canadian citizens everywhere. Thank you.

12:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Jason Kenney

So I take it you approve?

Anything else, Mario?

12:45 p.m.

Liberal

Mario Silva Liberal Davenport, ON

No. Thank you very much.

If I have time, Mr. Chair, I certainly want to briefly talk about...there was discussion about the importance of civil society and helping civil society in Iran. I want to know if the witnesses could make any further comments in terms of how we go about fostering that relationship and the encouragement of a civil society.

I agree with you, there is a movement, specifically among the vast majority of young people, who would like to have change. There was a CBC documentary not too long ago about the underground gay community in Iran and how they are meeting in secret places, and it's very difficult for them to meet. You could see there is a movement there. There are people who want to live free, like everybody else.

How do we go about...not just for the dialogue, but how do we go about engaging and supporting these local civil societies?

12:45 p.m.

President, Freedom Now

Jared Genser

Let me respond by saying I think there are two different strategies that are needed. One has to do with supporting expatriate groups, which I think can be done quite openly and transparently. There are a lot of expatriate groups that have extensive networks in Iran, that gather information and get information out of the country about ongoing human rights abuses, whether it be the Human Rights Documentation Center that Professor Akhavan helped start or a number of other groups. I think Canada is very well positioned to provide them with financial and other support.

It's obviously a lot more sensitive, I believe, in terms of providing in-country support to NGOs, given the risk they face. I do know, for example, that the United States government provides in-country support in a number of repressive regimes for NGOs, but does so in a way where the funding is provided much more quietly and it is provided without the same level of attention given to it as it might otherwise be if it were to an expatriate group.

I think that is important, because, frankly, NGOs in countries like Iran will be tainted and people will indeed be at risk of arrest or prosecution or being sentenced to time in prison, or even death, for cooperating with the Government of Canada or any other government and for securing government funding.

So I think you need a parallel track strategy in terms of the kind of support you're offering. Cooperating with expatriate groups can also relate to what I was describing before in terms of radio broadcasting and work on the Internet, because again, I think information is power. I think supporting those who are gathering information and distributing that information to the Iranian people directly, in voices that they can appreciate and understand--people who lived in Iran and who grew up as Iranian--is probably the most powerful way to influence their views.

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Jason Kenney

Thank you for that.

Mr. Khan.

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

Wajid Khan Conservative Mississauga—Streetsville, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Nazanin, Akhavan, and Mr. Genser, thank you for being here today.

I want to broaden the scope a bit. You talk about nuclear ambitions. You can talk about all those kinds of wonderful things, which are not naturally approved by the international community, nor Canada, but I think we have to perhaps at another time talk about the context of the Iran-Iraq situation, as to what their intentions are. Are they negotiable on the nuclear...? That's a very, very broad issue, so I'll stay out of that.

But I do want to come back to your transformation from within desire, and I have absolute respect for the intelligence of the Iranian people. I have flown with them. My instructor in the air force was Captain Ibrahim Mukadami. I also trained Iranian pilots, and I understand Iran very well. Iranians are very intelligent people. They produced a game of chess, and I believe the Iranian government is still playing chess with the rest of the world international community.

Their statements are coming out; all those things are very interesting. However, the transformation from within was tried in the late 1900s and early 2000s, and it failed miserably. Some would argue the only way to bring about change or for a change to take hold in Iran, from within, is to engage Iran diplomatically, to bring it back into the community of nations, allowing normal contact to take place over time, and information flow will have the desired effect and be gradually.... And I dare say there are no shortcuts.

I would like to receive your comment on that.

12:50 p.m.

Faculty of Law, McGill University

Prof. Payam Akhavan

Mr. Khan, you're a great expert on the realities of the region. As I've said, yes, I agree we have to keep the lines of communication open, but there's a fine line between speaking that amounts to appeasements and speaking that amounts to a principled exchange.

On the one hand, for instance, I think it was unfortunate when the opportunities existed immediately after the invasion of Iraq...that diplomatic ties were not restored with the United States. I would support the restoration of diplomatic ties between Iran and the United States. I would support this engagement because isolation plays into the hands of the hard-liners.

We have to look at the other side of the equation, which is where, for instance, in the case of many European states with significant commercial interests in Iran, they would not only turn a blind eye to human rights abuses in Iran, but they would also even allow assassinations on their own territory because of certain political considerations.

So should we speak with Iran? Yes, but we should also understand that there are many different voices in Iran. We should understand that the regime needs to understand that Iran does have legitimate interests as a regional power in the Middle East, but that those interests will be respected only if they're exercised responsibly.

One responsibility is first and foremost to the Iranian people, that their human rights be respected, and the other is not to foment unrest, whether it is with Hezbollah, Muqtada al-Sadr, or the various groups that are proxies for what I think is a very crude and destructive extension of regional power. Power doesn't come through supporting terrorist organizations. Power in this world comes through having a thriving economy, through having a culture that can influence others.

12:50 p.m.

Conservative

Wajid Khan Conservative Mississauga—Streetsville, ON

What are the aspirations of Iran as a country in the region? I will use the example of the isolation of Syria by the Arab world, pushing into the Iranian umbrella. Would you like to highlight that?

12:50 p.m.

Faculty of Law, McGill University

Prof. Payam Akhavan

Once again, there are different Irans that we speak to. The aspiration of some people in Iran is to spread the Islamic revolution, first throughout the Shiite majority areas in Iraq and Lebanon and then perhaps in Saudi Arabia and elsewhere. The aspirations of others may be a very kind of secular, political realist view of what Iran needs in order to defend its interests in the region. Then there are those who think that change has to first and foremost come from within by transforming the economy and that long-term Iranian-exercised projection of power ultimately depends on internal reform.

So I think these various actors exist, but it is a reality that Iran is a regional power, and any realistic foreign policy has to accommodate that. At the same time, it has to interject principle into the realist equation and understand that long-term stability, whether for Iran or the wider Middle East, will depend on moving beyond authoritarian power structures that have a vested interest in inciting hatred and conflict as a means of galvanizing absolute power.

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

Wajid Khan Conservative Mississauga—Streetsville, ON

On linking Iran's nuclear ambitions to its influence in Iraq, which I believe they will want to maintain over the long term--they've lost a million people, so why would they allow Iraq to get that strong again--do you think we can perhaps make that a negotiation point? Do you think the United States is now looking at Iran and Saudi Arabia as a solution to Iraq in how much influence they would have there?

12:55 p.m.

Faculty of Law, McGill University

Prof. Payam Akhavan

These are very good questions, but not ones I came prepared to answer today. I would need to give them much more careful consideration.

Clearly, Iran has legitimate interests in the outcome of events in Iraq, but one has to put those interests within the framework of certain principles. There are human rights principles involved and there are principles of sovereign equality. The message would be, “We recognize your legitimate interests, provided they are exercised appropriately.”

12:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Jason Kenney

Thank you very much.

That terminates the question period. I'm going to recognize Mr. Cotler on a notice of motion.

12:55 p.m.

Liberal

Irwin Cotler Liberal Mount Royal, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. As you know, some time ago I gave a notice of motion regarding the matter of the direct and public incitement to genocide in violation of the International Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide. It was a very long motion, and I think it was properly deferred in order to await the witness testimony.

In light of the witness testimony this morning, I would like to give notice of motion of a much more abbreviated motion than the one I gave. It would read as follows:

Whereas there have been repeated “direct and public incitements to commit genocide” against Jews in Israel by senior Iranian government officials in violation of Article 3c) of the Genocide Convention;

Be it resolved that:

1. Canada call on the U.N. Security Council to not only continue to address Iran’s development of nuclear weapons, but to consider Iran’s state-sanctioned incitement to genocide as a standing threat to international peace and security, and to refer this case to the Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court for investigation and prosecution.

2. Canada initiate a state to state complaint under the Genocide Convention against Iran in the International Court of Justice for its incitement of genocide.