Subcommittee on International Human Rights Committee on March 29th, 2007

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

First of all, I'll need a motion to approve an expenditure of $900.

(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

We will now move to the notice of motion by Mr. Silva.

Mr. Silva.

I've asked, by the way, that the pertinent sections of the Criminal Code be distributed in both languages for anybody who's asking questions about it.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

Can I move to adopt?

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

You can move that. You have moved it. So Mr. Silva has called the question.

Mr. Sorenson.

[Kevin Sorenson, Conservative, Crowfoot, AB]

Yes. In principle I think we can accept this motion, but there are still some Justice concerns. I would like to in some ways hear back from the Department of Justice as to the concerns they have with regard to this.

I don't know if we have any Justice people here now. I don't think so. Do we?

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Can I suggest we hear from the immediate past Minister of Justice on this?

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

The government in fact already took a position with regard to Mr. Mortazavi in terms of seeking an arrest warrant during his presence at the UN Human Rights Council in Geneva. This is just a follow-up with respect to the exercise of jurisdiction that we have under the Criminal Code to have a purpose to launch a criminal investigation.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Can you imagine any conceivable reason why justice department lawyers would object to this?

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Well, I think lawyers will always find reasons if they wish to object to something. I think this is really making a statement, what we consider to be a policy option that is well founded in law. There may be others who will say, well, you know, the person's not in our jurisdiction, etc., but the code provides for the initiation of an investigation, and that's all this motion is seeking.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Any further debate?

Madame St-Hilaire.

[Caroline St-Hilaire, Bloc, Longueuil—Pierre-Boucher, QC]

Like my colleague, Mr. Sorenson, I would have liked to have had a legal opinion. I am told that it would not be easy for the government of Canada to conduct a criminal investigation on this. On the other hand, I would not like to see us pass a motion that is inconsequential. We may feel good about doing this, if absolutely nothing concrete comes out of it… I have to admit that I don't have enough information to ascertain whether it is feasible or not. That is what I am wondering.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Mr. Silva.

[Mario Silva, Liberal, Davenport, ON]

I just think, Mr. Chair, that to do nothing would be worse. This motion is moving the issue forward. As one colleague just mentioned about the fact that we had issued an INTERPOL arrest for Mr. Saeed Mortazavi, there have already been actions. This is now putting some teeth to that action.

There are those who question what we can do, since these are foreign countries, foreign officials. I always think of that brave and incredible forward-looking judge in Spain who put an international arrest warrant for Pinochet. That had huge consequence. That was just not an insignificant action. Here we have a situation where a Canadian was killed. A Canadian was killed, and we know who the individual is; we have evidence. We should do everything possible to bring this person to justice.

Really, it would be important specifically for this human rights committee if we were to be the ones who were in fact forward-thinking, just like that judge was in Spain when he moved forward his motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Mr. Khan, Mr. Marston, please be brief.

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Very briefly, my colleague from the Bloc Québécois is not saying that we should not or we are opposed to. We all want the same thing. All she's asking is that, to put teeth in it, there's no harm in hearing from the justice department to do exactly what you want.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Okay.

Mr. Marston.

[Wayne Marston, NDP, Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON]

I have no problem with this motion whatsoever. I think that Canada has to speak out at a time like this. As we've heard and I think many are aware, Iran's record on human rights abuses is amongst the worst in the world.

The other side of this is that any motion we pass here goes to full committee. Between this time and that time, if there are justice issues that could be brought forward, why hold them here now?

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

There has been a suggestion that we hold back, but Mr. Silva has called the question, so unless there's a motion to table, I will call the question.

(Motion agreed to [See Minutes of Proceedings])

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

The next motion is a notice of motion by Mr. Cotler.

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

Mr. Chairman, I initially gave a much longer notice of motion back in December. The committee considered at the time that they would like to hear witness testimony to that effect. We had witness testimony.

This motion really incorporates recommendations made in the witness testimony, and I put it forward in the light of the background that was in the initial notice of motion, which set forth all the particulars that I did not include in this particular notice of motion on the grounds that we already had the witness testimony, and we had that initial background.

So I would move the motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

But which witness testimony are you referring to, Mr. Cotler?

[Irwin Cotler, Liberal, Mount Royal, QC]

I'm referring to the witness testimony of Mr. Jared Genser, who made specific recommendations to this effect. I'm incorporating almost directly the language in his witness testimony. That was concurred in by Payam Akhavan. That is what I understood initially--that the committee wanted to hear expert testimony before moving on my original notice of motion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Okay, is there any debate?

Mr. Khan.

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

With due respect to Mr. Cotler, I've just received all this information, which is very valuable information. I haven't had time to go through this.

I had some concerns, which I discussed on the side with my colleague, and I had some questions about the United Nations Security Council referral of the situation to the International Criminal Court, as to whether Ahmadinejad could be tried. He has explained some of those things to me, but I'd like to go through the documentation that he has provided so at least we can make a decision.

[The Chair, Conservative, Jason Kenney]

Mr. Sorenson.

[Kevin Sorenson, Conservative, Crowfoot, AB]

I too would like to go through this a little bit more in principle. There are some technical parts of this with which there are concerns.

Certainly everyone acknowledges that the intent Mr. Cotler has is a good one, to recognize an authoritarian who is saying things and doing things and preparing to do things that are totally unacceptable. However, I just need a little more time to sit down and look through this again before we move on this.