Evidence of meeting #18 for Subcommittee on International Human Rights in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was prisoners.
A recording is available from Parliament.
11:55 a.m.
A voice
Can I get a copy of that?
11:55 a.m.
Conservative
Wajid Khan Conservative Mississauga—Streetsville, ON
How would you like to respond to that comment? Are we using the United States as an excuse? You have not mentioned, or at least I have not heard you say, as to what the improvements are in the area of human rights. Is the press free, as it should be? Is it not? Are the reporters in jail when they speak openly? Is it an excuse to say they're supported by the Americans?
There has to be a better way to handle those things. If you have any suggestions, we'd love to hear them.
Noon
Research Associate, Centre de recherche sur l'immigration, l'ethnicité et la citoyenneté, Université du Québec à Montréal
First of all, I would like to tackle the issue of political prisoners in Cuba. At the beginning of my presentation, I said we must analyze the human rights situation in Cuba in light of the Cuban-American conflict. The human rights situation has always been used by the United States as an argument to justify its Cuban policy. They have always cast Cuba as a totalitarian State that suppresses human rights. As a result, the Cubans who oppose the Castro regime become political prisoners.
Are there any political prisoners? I believe so, in so far as there are people who have committed offences that have destabilized the political regime, according to the Cuban government.
We would have to refer, for example, to the report that Cuba presented when the Working Group on Arbitrary Detention travelled to that country. They visited Cuba in order to examine the findings in that committee's report.
Is Cuba acting in accordance with international standards? That is what we want to know, is it not? In so far as these political prisoners have had fair trials, have been represented by lawyers and have been punished according to Cuban law or according to the Criminal Code section that define the activities of these prisoners, I would say that officially speaking, the State is acting in accordance with its laws. Now, we must take all of these subjective issues into consideration.
When I read all these reports concerning the political prisoners... Furthermore, I would like to draw your attention to the diversity of arguments, the abundance of reports dealing with this issue. Personally, I am somewhat confused, because each organization is putting forward arguments that are sometimes different and sometimes contradictory. It is somewhat difficult to see one's way clearly through this, but there are clearly subjective issues. There are obviously prisoners who are maintaining their innocence. They say they are innocent and that they did not act against the security of the State. On the other hand, we have a trial process, witnesses and even, apparently, employees of the State that have infiltrated these movements to see what was going on there. They gave testimony. There are therefore subjective issues that must be taken into account.
I enjoy drawing comparisons and looking at things from different perspectives. Here in Canada, and in the United States, there are political prisoners. In the United States in particular there are many political prisoners. The situation of political prisoners is complicated. We must be very careful when we attempt to analyze the situation with political prisoners in Cuba.
Noon
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Jason Kenney
Before giving the floor to Mr. Marston, could you specify who the political prisoners in Canada are? You have just stated that there are political prisoners here, in Canada, and in the United States. Who are the political prisoners in Canada?
Noon
Research Associate, Centre de recherche sur l'immigration, l'ethnicité et la citoyenneté, Université du Québec à Montréal
I don't know if there are any political prisoners in Canada. What I am trying to say is that there are political prisoners around the world. There are certainly some in the United States.
Noon
Research Associate, Centre de recherche sur l'immigration, l'ethnicité et la citoyenneté, Université du Québec à Montréal
I don't have the information I need to answer your question.
Noon
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Jason Kenney
Two minutes ago, you stated that there are political prisoners in Canada. All right.
Mr. Marston, you have the floor.
Noon
An hon. member
Oh yes, there were some in October 1970.
12:05 p.m.
Research Associate, Centre de recherche sur l'immigration, l'ethnicité et la citoyenneté, Université du Québec à Montréal
There have been political prisoners in the past. The situation of Québécois political prisoners was very complicated at the time. Every situation requires a particular analysis, quite simply.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Jason Kenney
It seems to me that you are constantly changing your opinion.
Mr. Marston, go ahead.
12:05 p.m.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Canada certainly wants to nurture democracy in Cuba, and I can't disagree with anybody who suggests the American approach is wrong. I go back to an analogy I heard many years ago about two Mafia dons who sat down on a turf war and were sorting it out. The truth is somewhere in the middle usually on situations.
I might even agree that we could call some prisoners in Canada political prisoners, but they're under certificates. They're not exactly in prison. But we can have that debate another time.
Mr. Ritter, how would you see the human development index affected by the U.S. embargo?
12:05 p.m.
Prof. Archibald R. M. Ritter
I think the embargo has damaged Cuba, and the general relationship with the United States has damaged Cuba. And I would emphasize the latter more. The general relationship with the United States has put Cuba on sort of a low-level conflict mode with the United States, so they have had to invest a lot in their military, starting in 1960. Perhaps the greatest damage that the United States has done to Cuba is just the general hostile atmospherics that required Cuba to build up its military and invest a lot of resources in that wasteful area.
With respect to the economic parts of the embargo, Cuba has problems producing. Cuba's supplies of everything are limited by the character of the economy. Cuba could export huge amounts of sugar, but the production of sugar in the economy has collapsed, from 8.5 million tonnes to 1.2 million tonnes this year. That's the socialist sector. Nickel has done well with Sherritt. That is a big money earner. I would say a main constraint on the Cuban economy has been its supply capability, more so than the economic character of the embargo with respect to trade.
Cuba can get anything it wants from other countries that it might have gotten in the United States, so in that sense it's not a big loss. On the other hand, if you look at tourism, the United States would be a major source of tourists to Cuba. It was already as of two years ago, before the Bush administration tightened the restrictions. If tourism were liberalized, Cuba would benefit enormously from a huge influx of American tourists, including retirement home tourists, medical tourists, sun and sand tourists, convention tourists, etc. The embargo has hurt Cuba a lot by preventing Americans from going to Cuba.
I would say that the impacts are very mixed. Cuba has suffered as a result of the embargo, but not as much as it makes out. I don't believe that the embargo was the source of all Cuban difficulties. I think a lot of them are homegrown. The trade relationship has not been the most damaging aspect of the embargo; it's been other areas.
12:05 p.m.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Thank you.
With the American tourists in Hawaii and Cancun, I'm not so sure the end results are what I would like to see in Cuba. I've been to Cuba a couple of times.
Ms. Cruz-Herrera, you spoke of a number of different reports in your presentation. I'd be very interested in having a list of those so that we could refer to them and check them.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
12:05 p.m.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
That was in reply to his comment that American tourists going to Cuba would be an advantage. I don't necessarily agree it would be an advantage.
12:05 p.m.
Conservative
12:05 p.m.
NDP
Wayne Marston NDP Hamilton East—Stoney Creek, ON
Absolutely. There's no doubt in my mind.
You spoke about the changing environment and globalization, and how they impacted human rights in Cuba. Could you expand on that a bit, please?
12:10 p.m.
Research Associate, Centre de recherche sur l'immigration, l'ethnicité et la citoyenneté, Université du Québec à Montréal
The issue of globalization is so complex that I would not have time to do that. I would simply remind you that we live in a very plugged-in world. The United States, who are the masters of globalization and who have been leading globalization for several years, simply say to countries in the South, to the developing countries, that they must open their borders, liberalize their trade, be flexible, trade with everyone in the world, be open to trade and that as a result, their countries will develop, produce more wealth and emerge from the shadow of poverty. But in the case of Cuba, it is the exact opposite. The borders are blocked. In the case of Cuba, this does not apply. Cuba and the United States are 90 miles apart, I believe. In the past, they were partners. In 1959, the United States was Cuba's biggest trading partner. It would be very advantageous for both countries to become trading partners once again.
There are some things that are already in place. You are aware that farmers have brought an enormous amount of pressure to bear on the American government and that now, thanks to this legislation, the Agricultural—I have it here in my text, I can provide you with the details of this legislation—Cuba has become the 25th biggest buyer of American agricultural products. American farmers brought a lot of pressure to bear on Congress because for them, Cuba represents a fabulous market. There have been many trade initiatives of this kind. Now, as far as farm products are concerned, things are going well. There were restrictions. Often, Cubans had to pay cash when they were buying agricultural goods and this caused many problems because, generally speaking, everyone can buy on credit. Cubans had to pay cash and there was some softening on this because, obviously, they had to go through third-country banks. It was extremely expensive for the Cubans, and moreover, they had less liquidity. Therefore, certain steps have been taken to make the situation less rigid.
I would now like to talk about the repercussions of globalization on human rights in Cuba. I refer to this in my brief, but in a world where everyone is plugged-in, how can an island, a tiny country with limited resources, survive in a world where in order to survive and to develop, you must constantly be trading with the rest of the planet? In the case of Cuba, the country is constantly isolated and under embargo. Clearly globalization will have a local impact on Cuba, particularly because globalization is controlled or guided by the United States.
As far as the impact of the embargo on human rights and American economic policy toward Cuba are concerned, I have a few examples here, but if you do not want—
12:10 p.m.
Research Associate, Centre de recherche sur l'immigration, l'ethnicité et la citoyenneté, Université du Québec à Montréal
Fine then, I'll summarize.
12:10 p.m.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Jason Kenney
You may continue, but we've already gone over the allotted time by three minutes. We will move on to Mr. Sorenson, please.
12:10 p.m.
Research Associate, Centre de recherche sur l'immigration, l'ethnicité et la citoyenneté, Université du Québec à Montréal
If you don't want the Cuban government's official version because you find it—