It's really hard to have the discussion without talking about some of the tortures that are out there, or some of the inappropriate handling of people that has occurred when they were in custody of one country or another. Abu Ghraib is one of those places. If you've seen the pictures and the descriptions of what occurred there, the mistreatment of prisoners with humiliation and beyond, to my mind the protocol, as you've just indicated, helps countries that may stray into this area come back to the side of the line we all would expect of civilized countries.
The other issue we face—and it's not something that Canada is doing, so I don't want anybody to think I'm saying that—is the rendering of people to third party countries that are known to torture, and then to use that evidence. From Justice O'Connor, there was an indication that some of the evidence from Maher Arar had been gotten by torture. As a result of that, does it not taint anything flowing out of it into Canada?
I don't want to overstress the security certificates, except that those were in place for years. They were in place before 9/11. They were used. Their intent was to use around people who were facing deportation, to have control over that. Now I'm told that people who are held for five years in Canada were told if they wanted to go to another country, they were free to go.
I'm very troubled, because to me, not applying the court system of this country after five years on people's cases is a form of torture. You've withdrawn those people from their communities, from their families; you've put them into a place where they fail to receive the most fundamental right of our law, and that's the right to face the evidence against them and face the accusers against them.
So when we look at the protocol, it may sound strange to add that, but if we're not prepared to look at the ugly face of all forms of torture, then it's hard to make an evaluation. It's hard to understand at all how our country could not already be signed on to this.
I really appreciate what you've said to us about suggestions of whom to draw into this. Because when this committee's work is done, I want to ensure that we all are pushing hard for our country to sign on to this important protocol. Again, if we don't support the UN conventions that we do reach, then as a world community we're worse off for that.